Speaker 1 00:00:09 Welcome to Madam Podcast. This is Alo, uh, editor-in-chief of Madan and the Madam Podcast. Madam Podcast out of the, uh, EBU SEMA Center for Global Systemic Studies at George Mason University. And we are pleased to have on this episode, uh, two, um, academics, two scholars who have been working on democratization the Middle East, uh, and broader questions around, you know, politics and political science. Uh, we are hosting Dr. Advan Maui and Dr. Dalia fmi. Uh, today, uh, Dr. Maudi is the founding president of the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, C S I D. And the center is celebrating its 25th years, uh, this year. And just around the corner is Csid D'S 21st Annual Conference, uh, themes why the US should support democracy in the Muslim world and how, uh, and Dr. Dalia FMI is the chair of the program committee. Um, some of Madam Podcasts listeners will be familiar with her work around questions of, you know, politics in the Middle East in Egypt, um, and, um, her, uh, famed, uh, and survive the acclaimed edited volume together with Danish, uh, titled Egypt and the Contradictions of Liberalism. Dr. Ma, Dr. Fami, welcome to Madam Podcast. Thank you for having
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Us. Thank you very much for inviting us.
Speaker 1 00:01:34 Wonderful to have you both. So we'll start with Dr. Maudi with you. If you can talk a little bit about, you know, this 2050 year off the center, CS I d, um, its work, um, and, uh, and perhaps the, the ups and downs and, uh, the, the curves in CS I D'S adventures. And how do you leave the, the upcoming conference, uh, taking place in Washington, DC um, uh, Thursday, June 1st, uh, through, through that day?
Speaker 2 00:02:04 Yes, thank you Ahed for, uh, inviting us. Um, CS i d was founded in 1999, so almost 25 years ago, uh, to address the deficit of democracy in the Arab world and the Muslim world more generally. Uh, I think that the number one problem that we have in the Arab world, especially in the Arab world, but more generally even in the Islamic world, is the lack of, uh, democracy. Lack of good governance is autocratic regimes, repressive regimes, um, and, you know, very often authoritarian regimes that are not accountable to the people, and they are mismanaging, they, they're mismanaging the countries. They're, uh, abusing the rights of the citizens. And so we have, um, really failed states in many, mostly in the Arab world, but even in Muslim countries in general, a lot of failed states, A lot of states that have not been able to develop, uh, economically or politically or socially, or in every other aspect because of dictatorship.
Speaker 2 00:03:14 So I believe that dictatorship is the number one problem in the Arab world and in the Muslim world, and that we have as American Muslims, we have a, a, a a duty to try to address this problem, to try to understand the reasons behind this problem and what can we do to solve this problem and to help promote democracy, uh, in the Muslim war generally, and in the Arab Board generally. So that's our main goal. Uh, we have had 20, uh, annual conferences, and, uh, the annual conference is our main event of the year. Um, and we invite scholars and, uh, politicians and academics, um, from all over the world to come to this conference to discuss the various aspects and various issues, um, uh, around what can we do better, what, you know, to, you know, what can we, what are we doing wrong?
Speaker 2 00:04:15 What are we doing right, and how can we improve, uh, the, the, uh, situation, uh, in the Arab world and in the Muslim world. So, uh, this is, uh, a big event for us, and we usually have about between 102 hundred people attending, uh, you know, mainly, as I said, academics, but also a lot of, uh, think tank community. A lot of people from, uh, pol political, you know, pol policy makers. And, uh, this year the discussion is about why the US should support democracy. Why is it in the interest of the United States to support democracy in the, in the world in general. But here we're specifically talking about the Muslim world mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how to do it. What is the best way, if we all agree that it is in the interest of the United States and that the United States should support the democracy in the Muslim world, how, what is the best way to, to do so?
Speaker 2 00:05:13 What is, what, how should it support democracy? That's our main theme, uh, for this year. And, uh, we hope that it'll have an impact in, uh, in really educating the policymakers here in Washington on the problems of the Muslim world, the problems of the Middle East, and how to correct our foreign policy. You know, the foreign policy of the United States, uh, very often is misguided because it is not well informed. It is it people here in Washington don't necessarily understand the situation, uh, clearly as it is, uh, in, in the Arab countries or in the Muslim countries. So that's the overall, uh, objective of C S I D and of this conference. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:05:58 Yeah, no, thank you for that. And, and obviously given what's going on in Tunisia, I, I think like, at this juncture too, uh, and with your background and, and, and perhaps, um, I may say expertise on that, I'm sure on the panels we'll have a lot of rich discussions about specific case studies as well.
Speaker 2 00:06:17 Well, Tunisia, Tunisia is a, Tunisia is, is a very good example of, to study what went wrong. You know, we had a successful democracy for 10 years, you know, it was not perfect, but it was a transition to democracy, and it was working, you know, Tunisia was considered to be a democracy, not perfect, but, uh, a working democracy for almost 10 years. And then we saw that in the last couple of years, there was a coup against democracy. And, uh, you know, the, the elected president, uh, destroyed all of the Democratic, uh, institutions, uh, that have been created in the last 10 years. Disc destroyed the, the Constitution itself and went back to an autocratic, uh, regime. So what happened? What, why, why Tunisia did not succeed, what can the US do? What should the US do to help Tunisia re uh, return to democracy and, and resume its, uh, democratization process? So it'll be a very good example or a very good case study, uh, along with many others. It's not obvi, unfortunately, not the only one, but, uh, we can learn from those, from those cases.
Speaker 1 00:07:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you. Thank you Dr. Mabo for that. Um, with that, you know, uh, Dr. Fami, uh, if I may also ask you to reflect a little bit about, you know, this year's conference themes, um, as the brains behind, you know, this year's conference. What were some of the themes questions as the chair of the, the program committee that you and perhaps, you know, other colleagues have taught about how, uh, what were maybe some of the, the challenges, um, in, in, in, in building this year's program, by the way, which is, uh, really impressive, like, um, I, I was questioning how did they manage to get all of these names agree on one day, because I'm sure that was a challenge. Um, uh, but yeah, with the Dr. Fami, if you could, uh, also perhaps, um, just, uh, introduce a little bit about your work, your academic work broadly for our broader audience as well.
Speaker 3 00:08:34 Sure. So, thank you so much. I have to preface this conversation by saying I started attending C S I D as a graduate student, um, over a decade ago. And, you know, 10 years ago started to get invited as a speaker, and now, you know, coming full circle to being on the board of C S I D and, and now the program committee chair. Um, it's, it's really an honor and to see how far C S I D has come and the hard work, you know, it's, it's Dr. Ma Moody and, and his team that's really remained committed to this topic when we know that, um, several other organizations and think tanks have, um, abandoned democratization as, as a focus. And the reason why it's important to highlight that point is that Freedom House's latest report just released about a month ago, says that global freedom has declined for the 17th consecutive year.
Speaker 3 00:09:28 Um, and so what we are seeing is an increase in wars of aggression and increase in devastating human rights situations. Several new cos such as the one in Tunisia. Um, but most importantly for our purpose is attempts to undermine representative government. And it would seem that the world today is in much more need of rigorous democratic support than ever before. But what we're seeing through, um, US and other Western policy makers is that support for democracy or democratization is actually waning, um, both socially and politically. And it's a little over a decade ago that we had the Arab Spring, where we were extremely optimistic about the future. Um, this kind of new call, new Dawn democracy, good governance, transparency, has now been replaced with authoritarianism that is much worse than previously. I, I wrote an article saying, this is not authoritarianism 2.0. What we're seeing are authoritarian rulers further consolidating their rule, but even more importantly, we're seeing that attitudes towards democracy amongst populations throughout the world are also decreasing the, the support for democracy.
Speaker 3 00:10:57 Because this past decade of experience with democracies has led to greater repression, is leading to less support for the promise of democracy. Human rights have shifted away, and we're seeing more consolidated autocracies where governments are seen as rubber stamps to a supreme executive. Judiciaries are not independent, legislative assemblies are not seen as independent, and we're returning to the time period of a possible now turn to inheritance of power. Um, as we were in the 1990s and early two thousands, and so Csid D'S conference, the 15th annual conference just about 10 years ago, the discussions at that time centered around the hope of a new Middle East, a new democracy, that democracy was actually going to take hold in the Middle East of North Africa. And I remember, you know, speaking at the conference at that moment, and it was, um, five years, so now 15 years, but five years at that moment after President Obama's famous Cairo speech.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 And we were really committed to this new beginning and US relations with the Arab Muslim world. Were going to bring about this dawn of a new beginning, but that's been replaced with the narrative that we're looking at stability in the region at the expense of democracy, where we're returning to a foreign policy agenda here in the United States of democracy and stability being seen as two sides of the same coin. And so we saw the messiness of democracy. Now we're going to accept the st so-called stability of authoritarianism because it brings foreign policy stability. However, what we all know through, through the literature and through some of our speakers is that long-term repression does not indeed leads to stability. It leads to greater instability. And unfortunately on the horizon as, uh, Dr. Maui was saying, a possibility of, of failed states. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we're hoping to do in this conference is reflect on the last decade of scholarship and look at what's happened in places like Libya and Yemen and Syria and Egypt and Tunisia, and see what have been the differences in these cases.
Speaker 3 00:13:34 What has been the effect of displacement on several countries, uh, regime change, regime resiliency, what's happened to women's rights and women's representation, the co-opting also of women by the authoritarian regimes and what happened during the, the global pandemic, and what does the Russian War, um, or the Russian aggression in Ukraine, what does it do? What is the role of China and how has the current landscape ultimately changed, especially in the context of democracy and democratization? So it's an ambitious conference, but if you look at the speakers we have and the, the four tracks of the, of the conference in terms of the panels, what we're hoping is that we're going to have both theoretical, um, conversations as well as case studies to understand the future, for example, of political Islam and democracy, to understand the role of Islamic values in building a just and political system, what has been the cost of authoritarianism and looking at rights, human rights, minority rights, and women's rights, and, and coming up hopefully with an agenda for future plan for action.
Speaker 1 00:14:52 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I, I think, like, you know, one of the, um, the, the points that was interesting for me looking at the three panels was that mix, I think both of you have mentioned of, um, both academics and, and policy makers or, um, or, you know, policy experts. If, if I may ask, what extent do you feel like the policy making cohorts in Washington DC outside of the, the think tanks more so, you know, the administration folks, are they struggling with this question? Uh, right now? The, the main question that, that the, the conference pauses, or do you think that's, you know, the, the Biden administration has made its decision? Partially, I think my question goes to that conversation of bridging like academic and policies, fears and Cs I d A understand, you know, FIS been trying to do that for a while. What are some maybe like conversation points or critical turning points in these conversations during the panels that both of you expects?
Speaker 3 00:15:54 Well, one of the, I think it, I mean, of course all the panels are important, but one of the, I think highlights will be the, the conversation with David Kirkpatrick, who is a staff writer at the New Yorker, but also, um, used to be the formerly was the, uh, carrier bureau chief of the New York Times and wrote a book called Into the Hands of the Soldiers Freedom and Chaos in, in Egypt and the Middle East. And more recently, I think just, um, last month wrote about the arrest of, of Russia Kashi in, in Tunisia. And before that wrote in detail about the dirty smear campaigns that are, are foreign funded against a lot of is Islamist activity throughout the world. And so I think David, as someone who is in the media, who is an investigative journalist, plays an important role in highlighting some issues and factors that we sometimes as academics, um, maybe take a more bird's eye view.
Speaker 3 00:16:58 And he'll, you know, he, in his writing pulls together, um, a bit more real life experience in, for example, highlighting the extent to which the UAE had been meddling in, um, Egypt's during the 20 20 12, 20 13, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> time period of, of President Morrisey. So that kind of detailed experience, you know, he has been, he had been writing about it for a while, and hence the book coupled with analysts in DC who had been working on this for a while, such as, you know, Shadie Hammed, but also, um, academics who look at history trajectories and, and, um, where this can possibly lead. I think this intersection is important, and policymakers have at this critical juncture a lot to gain from this, because we know that during the last administration, the reality of the situation is the State Department was gutted. There weren't conversations about democracy, the, or even the Middle East, because those, the, those two desks were empty or held empty for quite a while.
Speaker 3 00:18:10 And so what we're seeing today in the Biden administration is, uh, coming together kind of rebuilding, but also perhaps there's a little bit of evidence of the possibility of rethinking, because increased repression is not going to lead to long-term stability. The, the, the retreat of the United States from the Middle East has given space to both Russia and China. And so I think what we're seeing reflected by this administration, by some of these policymakers, and by the interest in this conference, you know, as you mentioned, we have met people from all over who are very interested in not just in participating, but also attending, is because we're at this critical juncture where we're seeing evidence that perhaps the Biden administration is starting to rethink. Indeed, where does long-term stability come from? We saw in our past administration, there's a lot of kind of shorting, hedging, short-term interest for long-term stability.
Speaker 3 00:19:09 But what we're seeing increasingly is that this can't be sustained. And I'm hoping that we continue to encourage these conversations with members of, of state Congress, state Department, that, that it's time to rethink the US approach towards the Middle East and not, um, you know, today our conversation is, is centered around stop the repression. In 2005, our conversations were about political pluralism and to see how far the conversation in the United States has fallen on democracy is reflective of, of a lack of commitment. And I'm, I'm, I'm seeing evidence from this administration that perhaps there's a commitment to reengage and that this conference at this moment in Washington, hopefully we'll, we'll further enhance that dialogue.
Speaker 1 00:20:02 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you for the Dr. Da, Dr. Smadi. Um, did you have anything to add in terms of that scene of the, the policy sphere and the, the administration?
Speaker 2 00:20:14 Well, what we have found out, um, in this administration, but also honestly in all previous administrations, is that there is always a debate about how to do it in general, people in the Biden administration and also in previous administration, perhaps with the exception of the Trump administration, but all the administrations before that, and the Biden administrations agree that it is in the interest of the United States to support democracy. So the rhetoric is there, the, the goal, the objective, uh, is there, but the policies are not well developed. They are not well, uh, carefully studied and carefully implemented with a clear strategy on how to do it. Uh, supporting democracy is not easy. It's not one year project or two year project. It requires long-term commitment, and it requires long-term vision. Um, the, the benefits of democracy are, are, are huge, but only if, if you are patient only, if you stick with it and give it the time, you know, um, and support and nurturing that it needs for at least 10 years, uh, possibly 20 years, because that's how long it takes to really develop a democracy.
Speaker 2 00:21:39 That's how long it takes for democracy to grow and to become fruitful and, and to deliver results. It's not a magic wand. It's not something that just because we had a revolution, you know, in 2011, all of a sudden all of the problems are gonna be gone in 2012 or 2013. Uh, it's not one year or two year project. It's a long-term project. And I think people in this administration have a difficulty sticking with it and having that long-term vision to, to, to understand that at the end, the fruits of democracy, the benefits of democracy will be huge for the country, for the region, and for the world. And that dictatorship in the short term might give us the impression, the fake impression that it is providing stability. But we have learned in the last 60 years that that, uh, stability is fake and that stability is not real.
Speaker 2 00:22:44 That these dictatorships can explode at any moment because they are not delivering good results, and they're not delivering, uh, economic development or freedom or dignity to their people. And so you have all the problems, you know, waiting to explode, and we see them are now exploding in Sudan, for example, you, that's the, that's the price of dictatorship. That's the price of involving the army in political disputes. And then the army, if they disagree, they start fighting each other. And you have a war where civilians, uh, are suffering and nobody can stop the army. The army, you know, has all the, you know, equipment and arms and, and, and money it needs. And of course, as, uh, Dalia also mentioned, there are foreign Asians and there are foreign forces that do not want democracy to succeed in the Arab War or in the Muslim world. And they're trying to undermine, you know, actively trying to undermine any chance or democracy to succeed in the Arab Board and in the Muslim world.
Speaker 2 00:23:52 So if the United States really wants democracy to succeed, and I believe that is that it wants it, and I believe that it is in the interest of the United States to do so, it has to have a clear plan, and it has to have a clear strategy of how to support that democracy. It, it doesn't happen. It's not, wishful thinking doesn't happen just by saying, by words, by saying, Hey, yeah, we like democracy. It's not enough. You have to really support it, and you have to, to really defend it, and you have to fight for it. You have to protect it.
Speaker 1 00:24:29 Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, um, and, and of course there is a good deal of, you know, competitive terminologies as well, right? So that's, that's sort of circles around like sometimes, like Turkey is referred as a competitive, the sort of authoritarianism and, uh, and different kinds of, you know, terminologies. Sometimes obviously these terminologies within academia or the policy circles may or may not overlap. It realities on the ground or may not find, um, sort of overlap in the minds of people who, who vote. But without going into that area that says outside of our focus a little bit, I also wanted to ask this question, uh, Dr. Dalia, um, I see that in a panel four, um, in the conference, is looking at the role of systemic values in building a just society in a political system. And, and, and there's, you know, quite a few papers in that, or presentations within that panel that talk about, you know, what does Islam really say about certain subjects like s women's rights?
Speaker 1 00:25:33 Um, uh, and as such, um, do you think that this is still like, you know, a concern like the, the inherent sort of compatibility or lack thereof, Islam and democracy as one of the main movers for some policy makers in Washington DC and academics otherwise? Um, and I want to connect that to a second question in the last, you know, six, seven minutes of our conversation of what you define as in a problem of the quote unquote liberal, progressive Egyptian, sort of, you know, flocking towards illiberal tendencies when it comes to democracy, when it comes to voting, when it comes to understanding the role of Islam in, uh, democracy as well. Like, do you think these, you know, the values centered discussion is, is one of the key points still in the minds and hearts of some of the policymakers in Washington dc
Speaker 3 00:26:26 So the, I think the discussion on the compatibility of Islam and democracy has ended, right? <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's been so much literature that, you know, that this is a, it's an embarrassing question that we're still dealing with it, that values, um, in that, in the ink of, of, of sanctity of mind, body of heart, the, the values of what we think about in terms of Islamic, um, governance have veered so far away from just society, from just community, and have been reduced to issues such as, you know, the veiling and unveiling and reiling mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, the minority rights rather than what does it mean to have a just society, what does it mean to really protect human rights? And what does it mean to protect sanctity of mind, body, and health as well as the economy? And so the, the values are important because according to, and I think this is what, uh, mark Tesler and, and man Jamal will talk about, because the Arab barometer just releases this, its la latest data.
Speaker 3 00:27:32 And what we're seeing, we, what, what they are seeing, um, or what we as readers of the data are seeing reflected is that communities in across the Middle East are actually becoming secularized in a certain sense, but also more religious or more ti tied to their core values than before. And so there is something happening socially, I think, that we need to look at. So, you know, the conversations that we're having in western academia about compatibility, sometimes we're talking to ourselves, <laugh>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what we're seeing on the ground is that, yes, there's authoritarianism, but we're also seeing a level of state secularization of Islam. And what I mean by that is that it's not secularism like in France where there's lak or secularism in the United States where there's religion out of governance. What we're seeing in a lot of Middle Eastern post revolution states is that religion, there's a state version of religion that's acceptable, and that has rendered, um, a lot of communal gatherings around religion, where we used to historically see, um, the emergence of communities that would lead to social movements, that could resist the state that that's been eradicated, where religion is being secularized into a personal, uh, individual relationship, um, quietest versions of Islam.
Speaker 3 00:28:59 And by doing so, what we're also seeing emerge is a conversation about everyday values. And so separating this from the kind of western academic compatibility to what is a just society, I think is an important conversation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, to be had with an ear to what is happening on the ground. The, the secularization of Islam happening in a lot of post Arab spring states is coming as a mode to number one, control Islamism, number two, control religious spaces where people can gather. Because there is no freedom of association, there is no freedom of the press. We're seeing that, um, you know, for example, Friday sermons are issued by the state. And so this level of secularization is leading to two things, the abandonment of faith to a certain extent, but also, um, a retreat to the core values of Islam. And so I think these are conversations that we as analysts need to look at.
Speaker 3 00:30:02 Um, you know, the, the, the co-PIs of the Arab Barometer Project will be present at the conference. Um, a manager, Matt, who recently became the dean of s Spia at Princeton and, and Mark Tesla at the University of Michigan, will both be in attendance. And I think it's important for us to see their findings on the ground and to further develop that into an understanding that democracy and good governance, these conversations cannot be had without understanding the role of Islam in everyday social life in the Middle East. And so, again, you know, as, as Dr. Mos Moody said, and as you have been alluding to, we're trying to bring together people from all over the analytics sphere to come up with perhaps not answers, but better questions, better questions about where can we go in this conversation on democracy and the democracy deficit in the Middle East, and move towards answers that have an ear to the ground rather than an ear to academia.
Speaker 1 00:31:07 Thank you. Thank you so much to, to, to both of you for, for this rich discussion. There is quite a few additional aspects that we could speak about. I'm curious about, uh, former President Maki's, uh, remarks many of the, as I've said, is the star, sort of like lineup of academics, experts, journalists, um, that are lined up for, uh, for June 1st, uh, on Thursday at the Mayflower Hotel. Uh, I hope some of our audience members will be able to, to join and follow the rich discussions. Um, congratulations on csid D'S fifth year. Congratulations on the 21st conference, and congratulations to, to both of you for putting together such a rich, uh, program. Uh, we hope that, you know, uh, we'll have some follow up from the conference on the Mayn, um, on, on teams, uh, emerging and, and conversations to follow. As Dr. Dalia mentioned from states religions to like, you know, these, you know, the authorities essentially managing that, you know, religion, politics, sphere, uh, both within countries and, and even abroad to many other themes, um, across the region. Uh, there's quite a few conversation points and we hope that we'll host you back on, uh, the madan.com as well as the Madam Podcast, which is hosted at the madan.com/podcast. We hosted Rodan Mamo Mami to talk about Csid ds, the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracies. Upcoming conference, the 21st annual conference in Washington, dc Dr. Dr. Fmi, thank you so much for joining the Madam Podcast.
Speaker 3 00:32:44 Thank you for having me, us. And, and please, um, to all the listeners, join us at the conference by registering at the C S I D website.
Speaker 2 00:32:51 Yes, we hope to see you all there, and it'll be very interesting, uh, and fascinating discussions.
Speaker 1 00:32:57 The link for the conference can be
[email protected], csid online.org. Okay. We're finishing with it. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:33:09 Thank you.
