Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:09 Hello, and welcome to the Maiden podcast. I am Maria Dayak, associate Professor of Religious Studies at George Mason University. And my guest today is Dr. Kama. Dr. Jonah's interdisciplinary research interests encompass classical and modern political philosophy, as well as Islamic thought. In chronic ex Jesus, specifically focusing on the relationship between religion and politics. In the Middle East, her research methods employ analysis of Islamic primary sources to explore key concepts which can be used in constructing modern Islamic political theory. In 2013, DRMA joined the University of Rhode Island as an assistant professor with a joint appointment in the departments of political science and philosophy. Besides her interests in the humanities, Dr. Joma has a dual passion for science and technology. She has a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from the American University in Cairo, and a master's degree in Applied Material Science from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.
Speaker 1 00:01:14 Her scientific background has informed her study of religion and politics as she employs structural analysis to the understanding of religious texts and political events. Dr. Joma will be talking with us today about her recent book <unk>, A New Paradigm for a Global World published by SUNY Press in 2022. Welcome, Catherine. So I read your book, um, OMA, a new Paradigm for a Global World, um, earlier in manuscript form, as you know. And I just reread the finished version again, and I, I enjoyed it very much. This book and your work, um, lies at the intersection of religion and politics in the Middle East, in the Islamic world. But what really struck me is how different your approach to this subject is. From most of the scholarly treatments we see, uh, regarding religion and politics, or especially Islam and politics, most works on Islamic Pol and politics are concerned with talking about, um, the religious bases of authority or of legitimacy, or of the role of sharia, uh, in politics or in the state, um, sectarian politics or contemporary political conflicts.
Speaker 1 00:02:41 But in many ways, uh, your book, uh, takes a very different approach. You only touch very lightly on issues of authority or, uh, issues of the role of the Sharia in the state. Um, you really transcend sectarian politics by considering the thought of both Sunni and she thinkers, um, both, um, both classical and modern. Um, and you generally avoid talking about contemporary politics. <laugh>, um, your book is really an examination of Islamic Islamic political theory. Uh, not as regards authority and leadership so much, but with regard to the community itself, uh, the umma. And as I read your book, uh, you describe the Umma as, uh, not only a political community, but a moral community, ideally, a self-selecting, um, in its ideal form, a self-selecting and voluntary, uh, community. So, I wanted to ask you, what led you to focus on this concept of the Umma and to approach it in this particular way?
Speaker 2 00:03:56 Well, first of all, thank you so much for, uh, inviting me to have this talk. I'm really happy that I have the opportunity to talk about my book, so I really appreciate that. And you're right. Uh, when I thought about doing the work, I thought that I want to, uh, sort of move in a different direction because most of the work in Islamic studies is either descriptive, like they described previous scholarly, uh, you know, opinions and ideas about the state, about political isy, or, uh, sometimes it's critical of the current, uh, you know, systems or donation state. Sometimes it's apologetic. So I wanted to sort of move beyond those, uh, approaches, and I would say cut the chase and move directly into the primary sources and look for answers. I was interested in searching for answers to the problems that we're facing today. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the problems that we're facing today as a modern nation state, whether we're talking about the western modern nation state, that's like problems in the west, and also problems of the, um, colonizing nation state that was established by colonial powers in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 00:05:14 So I was more interested in, in, in searching for answers, and this is why I, I looked for the, the primary sources. Um, I wanted also to move beyond state centric approach, which is usually the approach of the obsession of modern politics. Modern politics are obsessed with the nation state. They're all state centric. So I wanted to also do something that is not state centric, that is not obsessed with sovereignty and being state centric. The UMMA is, is very special as, as a concept, uh, in Islam, in the COR in Islamic history. I think it's a major contribution of Islamic thought, and I thought that it needs our attention, like more attention, more understanding of what the OMA means and how can we activate it and realize it and manifest it in better ways in our contemporary world, and what significance it would have, not only to Muslims, but also to the world in general.
Speaker 2 00:06:23 Because when we talk about the koan, the KO is not just about Muslims, it's also for the world. It's not talking to Muslims only, it's talking to everyone. And there are moral and ethical values that everybody can benefit from. Another thing that I was also interested in is the field of Islamic political philosophy, or Islamic political theory. Unfortunately, despite all the advances that, you know, uh, Muslims have done during Islamic history, in all the sciences specifically, that field was not really developed apart from ABI and very few thinkers who have, you know, addressed this field. So I thought, like, how can we, you know, address that and add to that and actually start doing Islamic political philosophy or, you know, writing, not just saying that we have a gap in this field, but actually doing it, you know, engaging in Islamic political philosophy. So that was also one of my, you know, intentions and my goals is that, let me start an amateur start at, at beginning, you know, just like working on engaging, literally with Islamic political philosophy.
Speaker 1 00:07:40 Right? And I, um, so much of that is really fascinating and I think incredibly important to the field. Uh, just the idea that the political, first of all, that the political theory doesn't have to be tied to the paradigm of the state mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is, as you know, something that people are starting to talk about and to, um, and to think about mm-hmm. <affirmative> globally today. What is the role of the state? Is this, uh, something, is this a, um, a mode of political organization that is inevitable at this point? Um, or is it not? What are the problems that it causes and how can they be addressed? And you're really saying one of the ways to, to do this is to look at this very unique, uh, Islamic chronic concept of the Oma mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and to look at it not only as a way of solving issues that Muslims have with, uh, the state, uh, but um, with the idea of the state in general, same problems that are facing the West.
Speaker 1 00:08:45 And I, I think that's, um, that's really fascinating. Um, and, and so what do you, I mean, that's what I take away from the book. When you wrote the book. What do you think is the most important, or some of the most important ideas that you would like readers, not just readers in Islamic studies, but potentially readers in other fields, or people who might encounter these ideas in political science beyond the specialization of Islamic studies? Uh, what would you like for them to take from this, uh, from this book and from your study of the Oma? Or maybe another way to put it would be, what is it in the Islamic concept of the Oma that you see as being able to contribute even beyond the, uh, a Muslim context to some of the political issues that, uh, that we face today? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:09:42 <affirmative>, I think one major contribution would be the value and the agency of the human being. That the human being as an individual is not only about taking or having rights, but also about giving back. And the respons, it's a responsible human being. Somebody who needs to manifest his or her life in practice and public, and the politics in a healthy way, not just a consumer. The human being in the Koran is a Khalifa, is a vice of God on earth. Somebody who's endowed with, who's given lots of rights and given lots of qualities and given freedom and given reason, and given the senses and given the world, you know, to, to explore and discover, but is also charged with the duty, you know, also has a responsibility towards himself, herself, and the community and the world that they live in. So the human being is active, is proactive, is a major contributor to their societies, to the politics, and to the world.
Speaker 2 00:10:52 I think this is one major, uh, thing that I hope that the book is, is giving. And in that regard, this will affect how the state is run, how politics are done, how the government is run, how do we understand diversity in that context? How, what is our responsibility also towards that diverse population? What is our responsibility towards the law and towards people who make the law? How do we understand shk and that context? Uh, so I think that's, that would be my, my major contribution. Also, the understanding of, or the practice of legal pluralism that people, when they perceive themselves as a whole, not just as somebody who is, uh, private, uh, like different in the private from the public, you know, they're this kind of, uh, dichotomy between the public and the private. You have to manifest yourself in public in a certain way.
Speaker 2 00:11:52 And your private life has to be only in your private life. No. When you see yourself as a whole, as private and public, as a totality, how do you act when you see yourself as a whole? What does this require from within a legal system? Within a political system, if we see ourselves as whole, you know what I'm talking about? Not as dichotomous people, as people who are acting differently in different situations. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, this requires a change in the political and legal system. And I'm proposing that legal pluralism is a very healthy thing when we have multicultural societies and when we have diversity, when we have pluralism, that, that this can also solve lots of problems, problems of minorities, of people who, who feel alienated from this big system that's imposed on them. So that's another thing that I also, that's, I'm just, uh, thinking like <laugh>, you know, from the top of my head, what I think would be, uh, contributions.
Speaker 1 00:12:57 Yes. Wonderful. And the, the idea of Khalifa that you mentioned too, the beginning of your, of your comments there is really fascinating because we think of Khalifa, of course, primarily as the Cali right? As, yes, the official Islamic form of authority, or the ideal Islamic form of authority that's established right after the death of the prophet Mohamed. And there's, uh, lots of talk about the loss of the caliphate and of course, desires, um, to restore the caliphate, or what would the caliphate mean today and so on. But what you are saying is really, when the Quran talks about Khalifa, it's talking about every single individual human being as a Khalifa mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which puts the focus back on, as you said, human agency, the individual human agency in creating, uh, the, uh, the society. So when we think of in a status model, we naturally think of, of authority, we think of the person who is in charge or the, the, uh, structures that are in charge.
Speaker 1 00:14:13 But this is really a kind of bottom up, uh, understanding that actually every single, um, human being within the society has not only agency, but responsibility and therefore a certain amount, uh, of authority or contribution to the, the authority of how the society, um, is run. And so, first of all, I think that's a, that's a really important point, is to rethink this idea of what Khalifa means. It's, it's been rethought, uh, as being rethought, I should say, right now, in terms of Islamic environmental ethics, for example, what does it mean that the human being is a khalifa on the earth? Do they, each individual has a responsibility for caring for the earth and for the environment. But you are talking about it within the context of political theory specifically, uh, and rethinking the idea of the state. So I have a, a couple of questions, maybe a sort of follow up questions about that. If you were to talk to a person living in, born and raised in, um, a completely western, uh, model of the state,
Speaker 1 00:15:29 They would say that human agency is enabled by the modern state, modern democratic state, right? There's of course, the idea of citizenship. Uh, there's democracy, there's voting, there's citizen participation at various levels, uh, and representation, uh, in the government. There's, uh, sort of civil society that, uh, people participate in that, that's important. How is, how would this idea of khalifa, however, or this more Islamic notion of human agency and society, what would it add to, or how would it change those sort of secular western status understandings of, um, human uh, participation, responsibility for their society and their, the governing of their society?
Speaker 2 00:16:26 Okay. Yeah. I think that the modern nation state already gives some, um, agency, even if it's sometimes illusionary, it's not real, but at least it, it provides that rhetoric, you know, that ideal. And by allowing people specific venues to act such as voting or elect election, you know, people feel like, oh, I'm doing something. Um, however, it's very confined. That's one thing, and limited, and people feel, um, and it's also localized. So now we have a problem with the environment, because people, when they think of themselves, when I think of them myself, I think, for example, I'm a citizen of America. I'm just limited to America, right? I want the best for America, but I don't care about what's happening to the rest of the world. It's more, it's a narrowed vision. It's limited, and it's confined. I think the idea of the <unk> being the vice of God on Earth, it opens up the horizon of how you perceive yourself.
Speaker 2 00:17:39 And then when you are proactive, it's not only about the nation that you're living in, but more about the world. Another point is the absence of a common good in the modern nation state, the idea of a common good is not really prevalent anymore. So when somebody are thinking of being active or proactive, they're usually thinking about their interest, what my interest is, right? Versus against somebody else, or that's my political party against that political party. My end goal is I want my interest to win. It's a very competitive atmosphere that is resonating with a capitalist, um, market and competition within a capitalist market. So you're also confined to your own narrow world and your own narrow vision and narrow interests. And sometimes this, what you want to achieve contradicts somebody's else interests. This is why you have the stronger nations are feeding off the weaker nations.
Speaker 2 00:18:47 I have nations that are thriving economically and all of that, and other nations are dying out of hunger and out of poverty and out of lot of, lots of problems. And then when the, the nation state, even within the nation states, you have the political elite, or the majority they're doing, you know, they're having the laws that work for the majority and do not work for the minorities. So even within the nation state, you also have the same kind of, of, of, of that defect. So when we talk about the Khalifa, it's not only about me, it's not just about my interest, and I don't care about the rest of the world. No, it's about me and the rest of the world. It's about me and my neighbor. It's about me and what I consider a minority. And the concept of minority by, by the way, in Islamic thought, I, so far from my research, I did not find it.
Speaker 2 00:19:37 I didn't find it there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the Medina Constitution, for example, the Muslims were a minority. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the Jews were a majority. But you don't see that term used. You don't see that numbers or that idea that ideology used, because just saying a majority and a minority, you are already implying just by the naming of it, you're already implying a difference. Just name, you know, just the minority. It already says something is less, you know? So I ha I didn't see that in the Medina Constitution, which is a pluralistic society. And I think that's healthy because you don't want to conceive of yourself, perceive yourself as a minority. You want to perceive yourself as a citizen who's not minor in any way or any form, whether it's skin color, whether it's the language, whether it's the race. No, you perceive yourself as a Khalifa, as somebody who has a, who's complete, who's whole, irrespective of the number, and who has a full contribution to the society that he or she lives in. So seeing yourself as, as, as, as, as Khalifa of a law, as, as a creature of God, as somebody who's endowed with all these, you know, virtues and all these qualities, and a major contributor is not about just you or your, you know, narrow private interest, but it's also about a common good and something bigger than you,
Speaker 1 00:21:08 I would say, bigger than you, and bigger than the particular group that you affiliate with. Exactly. Right. Which is, I think one of the, the lessons that you draw and, and perhaps others have drawn from the medan constitution that you talk about. And I wanna talk about that, um, in, in a minute. Uh, I just wanna
Speaker 2 00:21:27 Also, Maria, just, I didn't wanna talk to you, not only in the Constitution, but also in the COR Anne. Yes. Because for some people, they say, oh, the Medina constitution is controversial. We're not sure it actually existed. We're not sure, you know, why this and this and that. So look, that's why I started with the cor because the COR is here, it's the same word for word and letter for letter. And it also talks about, you know, there are verses that talk about this pluralism and this contribution. So even if you are gonna discredit the Medina Constitution as a historical treaty, that may be controversial some way or another, which I don't go by that opinion. But even if you wanna do that, the Koen actually talks about the Khalifa in that way.
Speaker 1 00:22:09 Right. And I, um, should also mention, uh, for you, for our listeners, uh, that, uh, that Karin, in addition to writing this book, is also a contributor to the, uh, Islamic, uh, moral theology and the Future Project, which is supported by the John Templeton Foundation. Um, and is something that I have been leading along with my colleague, uh, Dr. Martin Wynn from Fairfield University. And Katherine has been one of the contributors to that project. And I had the opportunity to spend a little bit of time with her at a conference related to that project, uh, a couple of months ago. And so I wanted to, uh, in, in her contribution, uh, in your contribution, Catherine, to that project, you wrote an essay for us that talked about this idea of the common good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that is perhaps a really important intervention that an Islamic moral theology of the community, uh, or a political theology of the community can contribute.
Speaker 1 00:23:24 Because of course, the modern Western secular concept of the citizen is often as a consumer, as someone with particular, a particular set of rights, uh, that can expect a certain level of, of service from the state, as opposed to a more holistic idea of a contributor to the state. And of course, in a democracy and a representative democracy, there is the conception that people participate. Uh, but I think people often feel very alienated from that, um, despite their, uh, ability to vote or to select their representatives, or to participate in various ways in civil society or in the political process. So this idea of the common good, I was wondering if maybe you could expand just a little bit more, uh, about this idea of the common good and how it connects to the idea of human agency.
Speaker 2 00:24:30 Yeah. So what I wrote in the, in the project was about how, how, despite our differences, we can come together and think of a common good, the Koranic paradigm. And this is something that I was actually hoping I was gonna talk about as the, you know, the, the, the future study that I want to do. So it needs much more studying and much more work. But just as sort of an introduction or, uh, a simplistic idea that I got from the Koran about the common good is that when people feel that they are connected, uh, by just the mere fact of they're being created by a common God, just one God created all of us and created the world, this brings, uh, back a kind of a, um, a basic connection or a common ground that people can go and refer to, even if they are different in religion or different in ethnicity or in race.
Speaker 2 00:25:28 So there's, there should be something that people have to resort to in order to feel that kind of contribution and not be alienated. So, for example, if, let's say somebody from the Middle East, or Middle Eastern origin, or Mexican origin or Hispanic origin is living in the United States, and they feel that their vote will not count, or they feel that they don't wanna participate in the political system, because I asked this question in my classes, like, why do you feel this way? They say, because we feel that it's not gonna count. It's not gonna make a difference. Or, because the, you know, the, the general, the lawmakers do not care about my needs, so they won't listen to what I want. So here again, they feel alienated because of the absence of this commonality, the state by itself is not enough to maintain and sustain that common bond.
Speaker 2 00:26:33 There needs to be much more than that. So having, uh, and, and, and if we're going to go beyond ethics and race and religion, having one God is, is that commonality that the koen is calling for. Another thing is having an i, uh, sort of a culture of mutual reciprocity that, you know, I should care because I have the common God, or I have one God, or we have the same common creator, and we have a common destiny. We have a shared destiny, we have a common place that we live in. It's the same earth that we live in. I have a responsibility towards my neighbor. So also having that feeling drives or motivates people to care about the other or contribute to this, you know, shared destiny that we all share.
Speaker 1 00:27:27 Yes. Thank you. And I, and I, I'm sorry, did you wanna continue? Yeah. There
Speaker 2 00:27:31 Is the, uh, there is the, that actually caught my attention, which talks about, um, um, let's say, uh, somebody is talking to somebody else and telling them, why do you keep advising people that God is going to ruin? Okay. And the, and the person answers, I'm advising them because maybe, you know, they will change one day. Right? And because, you know, this is a kind of a responsibility that I have. So I think the verse alludes to the idea that, oh, having something in common creates that sense of responsibility towards the other, or care or compassion towards the other. Even if you, apparently you think that they're doomed or they're not gonna survive, or, you know, they're completely different from you, you still have, if you have this commonality, you will have that kind of care and compassion, which are very important for a healthy society. So, that's what I got from the verse. But I think this idea of common good is, is huge, is big, and it needs a lot of study. I think it's something that, you know, needs more work, and I'm hoping to work on it in the future.
Speaker 1 00:28:42 Well, we certainly look forward to that. And I would say that, uh, just maybe following up on some of your, uh, the points that you just made, of course, yes. That, uh, verse from the cor Koran about people warning other people, even though they seem to be not receptive, uh, to the warnings. But even if they're not receptive, it's still your responsibility to, to offer those warnings. And I think about, of course, the chronic principle of, uh, <unk>, which is, uh, um, commanding the good and forbidding the wrong, which is a responsibility that's, that we would normally associate with state authority. Um, but in reality, the Quran gives this authority, uh, to the prophet, of course, but also to every individual within Thema. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, everyone in the Oma. Yes. And in it's, it's very explicitly male and female. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this responsibility really is a responsibility that falls upon every individual to take care to not only contribute to the common good, but to c take care of, um, to look out for, uh, the wellbeing of all of those other people around you in your community.
Speaker 1 00:29:57 And something else you said really struck me when you talked about this idea of a shared destiny, um, that we all live on this earth, uh, we have something in common. And it brings me back to the Medan constitution again, because of course, the Medan constitution, maybe we should just back up for a minute. Of course. Um, a document that even though there's some controversy about it generally is considered by scholars to be, uh, a fairly authentic document, true from the lifetime of the prophet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Mohammed. Um, and it outlines the general organization and principles for how this now multiethnic multi-religious society that had been created when the prophet and his followers immigrated to Medina, how this was gonna be governed. Cuz you had, uh, Jewish, uh, clans, you had Muslims, you had Native Muslims from Medina, you had Muslims that had immigrated from Mecca.
Speaker 1 00:31:03 You had, uh, some people who, uh, it seems, uh, may have still been polytheists. Uh, so it was a community with <affirmative>. Yeah. Multiple religious groups, multiple ethnic groups. And it was, uh, a way of trying to organize peacefully the relationships between them. And one of the, although it allowed a certain amount of autonomy for each community to govern themselves, is maybe what you're talking about with legal pluralism, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> allowing each community to govern their own affairs mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also recognizing that as fellow residents of this one particular city, uh, ya or later, uh, renamed Medina, they had a certain responsibility to that land, to that city. Yes. To that space, and to all of the residents within that space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That's true. And I'm suddenly, when you, when you talked about that, I suddenly realized that this can be applied on a kind of macro scale in the globalized world in which we live today.
Speaker 1 00:32:17 Of course, Medina was a small city. Yeah. But, um, but in a sense, if we're looking at this globally, if we're looking at this across, uh, human society, we all share this earth. Yeah. And so can that notion of a, uh, a commitment to one another and to the environment in which we live as a moral, um, uh, principle that transcends differences in religion, differences in race, differences in ethnicity, differences in language, and doesn't really consider whether individual groups or majorities or minorities. It's sort of, you know, these are the concepts in which people think today politically. But this idea that comes out of the Quran, that comes out of the Medan constitution, these, uh, really early Islamic sources do hold keys for getting beyond some of these habits of thinking that we have in the modern world that sometimes impede our ability to work together cooperatively.
Speaker 2 00:33:31 Definitely. And I also wanted to add something, uh, from what, what you previously said about <unk>, which is, uh, I mean, I would say fortunately or unfortunately, it's, it was limited to the political, uh, world specific people doing that. However, when we look at the koen, actually what distinguishes the Muslim <unk> specifically from the rest of the umk, is that action that the Muslim <unk> God says the Muslim <unk> where the best <unk> ever raised for mankind. Why? Because they command justice or righteousness, and they deter wrongness and believe in one God. So if the rest of the world, let's say, want to learn something from this Muslim <unk> is that's what they can learn from the Muslim umk, is that when they see them, that that's what they do. This, this act of, of continuous reform that should invigorate a healthy society. Unfortunately, the Muslim umk is not doing this today, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 00:34:48 We're fighting based on differences in sexts differences now in nations and in language. There is a lot of, you know, um, chaos going on among the Muslims today. And I think this is happening because they forgot, and they deserted this idea that what is special about you, what is significant about you as a Muslim <unk> is that you have this, actually, I wouldn't call it only a duty. You have this privilege that if you actually, you know, make it happen, if you practice it, not only you'll benefit yourself, but the rest of the world will look at you and say, wow, look, they're doing very well. Why don't we do that too? You know what I'm talking about? Yes. Cause, cause E even obviously it comes together, uh, uh, they command righteousness, deter wrongness, and believe in God. It's like a whole package. And some people say, oh, but some people are atheist.
Speaker 2 00:35:50 They don't believe in God. Some people are atheist. They don't believe in God, but they, they like doing good, you know? So I mean, there is, there is, there is a lesson there. And in, in, in this practice, it's, there's so much to gain from it. But unfortunately the Muslims are not doing it today because the Oma is actually divided today. They're not united. They're not thinking in this paradigm. We're thinking today as Muslims from a nation state perspective, we're divided over. Even we, we speak the same language, look the Arab world, but we're divided, you know, like Egypt, Lebanon, you know, Syria. We're not thinking in that paradigm. And this is why it's not activated today, but if it, if it was activated, it would be benefit for Muslims and for the rest of the world.
Speaker 1 00:36:39 Yes. Wonderful. Well, let me, let me follow up with that too and talk a little bit about, try to connect some of the ideas that you mentioned. First of all, first of all, getting beyond this way of thinking in terms of majority men, men, minority mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, thinking about the community and the individual, and the relationship between the community and the individual, not simply majority and minority. And also talking about your men, your, your comments just now about divisions in the Islamic world, uh, state divisions, as you mentioned, but also of course, sectarian divisions. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> between parti, predominantly between, uh, the XI and the Sunni mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, world, which also the understanding of the relationship between those two is also influenced very much by perceptions of majority and minority.
Speaker 2 00:37:34 Definitely.
Speaker 1 00:37:35 And, uh, so, and, and even the way they conceive of the majority and the minority, right. Uh, from a Sunni perspective, the majority seems to be the majority. It seems to be right, by virtue of being the majority, whereas in a lot of, of she literature, it's the minority that really, you know, holds the truth or has the, the truth. So even, even their rel the religious relationship between she's and Sunnis is often based on this majority minority conception. And one of the wonderful things your book does is really, as I said, kind of get beyond that by equally considering, uh, really equally considering she and Sunni perspectives, um, looking at both modern and classical, she and Sunni commentators on the Quran, on these ideas that you talk about within the Quran. Um, how important do you think this is as a model going forward for people doing other kinds of, uh, as, as you know, uh, I'm someone who is a, a scholar of she, um, so I often feel that some really important, uh, ideas that developed in a very sophisticated way in the she tradition don't always, um, influence broader Muslim thinking, which I think is, is a problem.
Speaker 1 00:39:01 So how, how do you think this methodology helps you in developing this initial movement toward an Islamic, uh, political theory and an Islamic political theory that could have influence even beyond, uh, the Islamic world? How does the incorporation, the equal incorporation of Sunni and Xi perspectives help you with that?
Speaker 2 00:39:24 Yeah, it actually, uh, it helped me tremendously, uh, even from a personal perspective. Because when you go into the KO and you look at Koranic ex Jesus, you know, I use the Tabari <unk> from the classical, uh, uh, Quranic ex, and I use, um, <unk> and from the modern ones, you look at what they're writing and their commentaries on specific Koranic verses that I use specifically towards the Oma. And you find lots of similarities, and you find more similarities among people. For example, I find lots of similarities between moham abou and, but they're both from the modern time, so lots of similarities among them. Their ideas then between, for example, <unk> who both Shia, but they're belong to different age periods. Okay. So just seeing that and discovering that and reading about that changes your own perception about things and about this Sunni divide. I'm not saying that the Sunni divide does not exist, or there's no merit in it.
Speaker 2 00:40:43 I'm not saying that that's not what I'm saying. There is some differences, but the majority of, of, of the, of the majority is similarity, not the difference. And then when you go with this methodology, when you say, I'm gonna read the koan, I'm gonna study the koan and look at commentaries from both, you figure that out yourself. So I think it's very important that we as academics, we as scholars move beyond, you know, the, the, the superficialities of people who have agendas on the political level, on the religious level. We as scholars have this responsibility to move beyond that. And this is what I wanted to do. For me, it was self-exploration. It was more about, I wanted to figure out what is the real difference. And also I want to show that it can be done, it's possible, and we can do it. And this will help solve lots of problems that are going on, you know, on right from the ground level, from the bottom.
Speaker 2 00:41:49 I think it should be very healthy if we do that. Another thing is, when the COR invites us as a humanity, it invites Muslims and Christians and Jews and saviors to come together and figure out common ways of living and figure out common interests and figure out better ways of dealing with the world if it invites people from different religions to do that. How about us Muslims who believe in the same God and follow the same prophet, and we have the same book. So I'm using Aristotle in my work, right? Who is from, you know, thousands of, of, of, of years ago. Right. And I don't know what his belief was. I'm using Aristotle and I'm finding lots of benefit in using Aristotle. I learned a lot from Aristotle. And this is another thing that I want to bring, you know, Islam and the West End dialogue with each other based on the Koranic, you know, inspiration and the Koic invitation that learn from each other, you know, come together, understand each other. So if I'm doing this with Aristot, I as a Muslim cannot do this between Sunni, and it's a pity if I can't do this, it's really pathetic, right?
Speaker 1 00:43:06 Yes. Scholars,
Speaker 2 00:43:08 They, they, they discuss the, you know, uh, John Jack, they discuss Hubber, they discuss John Rose, they talk about it, but they are afraid of coming and talking about Sunni and scholars. Why is that? What is the problem? I mean, just sit and think about it. It's ridiculous. So I'm hoping, I'm really hoping that it, people would, you know, see something beneficial and something hopeful in the approach that I'm using and start using it. And I'm talking to Muslims specifically, and also everybody else, like in general.
Speaker 1 00:43:44 Right. Well, thank you so much for that, Kain. I guess I have one, uh, one final question. I know you already talked about, uh, what you want to do going forward, um, building upon this idea of, of the common good. And, uh, certainly, uh, looking forward to, to seeing your work on that. One, uh, final question is, because you, you mentioned, and I forgot to mention this too, one of the fascinating things about your book is the degree to which you employ, um, Aristotle and Aristotelian, um, political thought as well in conversation with, uh, Islamic thought, both Sunni and, and Xi. And I'm wondering, um, if you have any sense, I know your book is only very recently published. Do you have any sense for what the reception is, let's say, uh, among Muslims who, uh, are either Sunni or she to sort of seeing this, uh, issue addressed, either in relation to Aristotle, which as you say, is not, certainly not foreign in, in Muslim intellectual circles, but also, um, considering both Sunni and and she perspectives, are you hopeful about a kind of receptivity to this, um, to this methodology?
Speaker 2 00:44:59 I'm very hopeful. You are the first one who addresses it. So I have given a, uh, a number of talks about the book in more than one venue, uh, among Muslim circles and in general to the Western audience. Uh, but I did not get that question. Nobody asked me about it. <laugh>, uh, I think they, they wanna avoid it because they don't wanna deal with it, or they don't wanna open sensitivities. I don't know. I mean, nobody asked me about it. You're the first one who brings it up, and I'm happy that you brought it up. You know, so I haven't, it hasn't, I don't know the reception among others, whether Sunni or Shia so far, honestly, because it wasn't brought up. But I'm happy that you did bring it up.
Speaker 1 00:45:46 And what do you, what do you think, have you had any responses to, uh, the book from people outside of Islamic studies specifically, even in conversations with colleagues and so on?
Speaker 2 00:46:02 Yeah, yeah. I had, I had some very, uh, thank, thankfully very positive, uh, feedback. I had, uh, people telling me that this is very interesting. Um, I think it's a great contribution. They asked me also about the concept of sovereignty. They said, we need to, you need to deal with that. If you want to extend or, you know, uh, expand this work. Another person said, you need to talk about the concept of Ji, for example, the concept of war, uh, within this, you know, <unk>. Like, you need to deal with all these, you know, um, terms because they are important as, you know, you expand the work. So I've got some, you know, positive feedback and also positive, uh, constructive. Um, you know, I would, I wouldn't say criticism, but constructive feedback that, you know, what I need to add to the work. So, so far, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:57 I also had somebody told me that if you, um, actually take the Koran outta the picture and just talk about the umma as a system, whether local or global system, it would be more attractive to the Western audience. Hmm. But I said, I can't do that because that would be a lie, right? Like literally, I'm, I'm getting all these ideas from the koan, um, and I want actually people to start see the seeing the Ko as not just something that is particular to Muslims. I mean, it's not a cult, right? It's a divine revelation. That's for everyone. So also seeing the Koran as very narrow and very limited and very specific, and it works within specific context. I think that's an erroneous and, and, and modern kind of understanding. I want people to see the Koran as of value of, of ethics. And there's a difference even in the Koran itself.
Speaker 2 00:47:59 I made this argument in my book. There's a difference between the Islamic paradigm and Muslims, because Muslims are the people who follow the Islamic paradigm, and they also practice the Sharia. They practice all the rules of Islamic Sharia. But you can be living within, you can be living within the Islamic paradigm and not be a Muslim. And this is what happened historically for, for centuries that Jews and Christians and other people were living under the Islamic paradigm, meaning that they were benefiting and thriving within this Islamic ethics and moral values, right? Like the, this umma, this understanding of pluralism, legal pluralism, the understanding of the human being, all of these things. They were thriving and living very well under the Islamic paradigm, but they were not Muslims. They were not following all aspects of the Islamic Sharia. So the Islamic Sharia is not just about the hijab and fasting and, and the than all of that. The Sharia is much wider than this. There are values and ethics and, and much bigger things that the Sharia provides. And there are also the, the practice that only applies to Muslims. Obviously the Muslims get a, a better deal because they're taking the whole package, right? Right. But you can still be as somebody who's not a Muslim, and also benefits from that system and that paradigm very much. And people have done this for centuries.
Speaker 1 00:49:27 I completely agree. Uh, one of the points I often make when I talk to people about the Quran is that it does not just address itself to Muslims.
Speaker 2 00:49:36 Exactly. It
Speaker 1 00:49:37 Addresses itself explicitly to human beings. And sometimes it addresses itself to people who are specifically non-Muslims, people who are, uh, Jews or Christians or people of the book, or,
Speaker 2 00:49:50 Or atheists or everyone, everyone, uh, or
Speaker 1 00:49:53 Human beings general.
Speaker 2 00:49:55 And I think it's the responsibility of Muslims also to say that and articulate that and make it known to everybody else. <laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. We, we, we don't want to keep it to us, like, oh, it's just my book. No, it's not just our book. It's the book. It's, it's, it's for everyone. Right? We need to make it clear. Maybe we're not making it clear enough. Maybe we're not talking about it enough to say that this is for everyone.
Speaker 1 00:50:18 Yes. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Catherine, for being such a, such a generous, uh, guest with your responses and, uh, and, and so engaging. I've really enjoyed our conversation, even though we've had many conversations before we went into new areas, um, uh, today. So I'm, I'm very, very happy to hear you, uh, expand upon some of the important ideas and talk about some of the important ideas, but expand further on some of the ideas that you have in your book. I hope that, uh, we will have the opportunity to read more of your work very soon. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, Maria.
