Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:04 Welcome to on the square especial podcast brought to you by SAP, a little square in collaboration with the main dam. I am Dr. <inaudible> senior editor of SAP, a little square and curator producer of this podcast, where every month we get on the square and into some real talk about race and a slam in the Americas. So like, um, I am a biotech, Kasi, Nance, step, a little squares arts and culture editor. On this episode, we discuss black maternal health and the historic and contemporary roles of black and black Muslim birth workers in Africa and America. Our guest today is the queen mother of midwifery Shafi. I'm going to Rome Shafi and Monroe is a renowned midwife, doula trainer, cultural competency trainer, master of public health, motivational speaker and writer. She is a lifelong learner of organic gardening and herbal medicine. She began studying midwifery in the 1970s at 16 years old to help end high infant mortality in her community and organized for reproductive justice.
Speaker 0 00:01:14 Born in Brookline, Massachusetts with roots in Alabama, Shafia has lived and worked in Portland, Oregon for over 30 years. She is the founder of I C C the international center for traditional childbearing. The first national non-profit created to increase the number of black midwives and doulas of color as a way to diversify the midwifery profession for better birth outcomes. In 2013, she created Shafi Monroe consulting or think change to help healthcare providers and doulas achieve cultural competency, increased clients and improve birth outcomes. She is the owner of SMC full circle doula birth companion training that is built on spirituality and reclaiming traditional birth practices to heal and empower families to improve maternity care. Since 2002, Shafi has trained more than 5,000 SMC, full circle, doula, birth companions, worldwide Shafi mentors, hundreds of people to follow their passion and healthcare as midwives and doulas Shaffir continues to lead on issues of birth justice and health equity through speaking training and using her social media platform to uplift issues, create discussion and encourage action. We are honored to have Ms. Jaffe and Monroe is our guest today. So I'm sister Shafia and welcome to on the square. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for having me on. Thank you. So before we begin our talk about, uh, black maternal health, uh, can you share with us your personal black Muslim things? Um,
Speaker 1 00:02:58 That was a question. So I decided I'm going to use Sam cooks. I was born by the river because that song makes me think of, he was probably born in a little tent pod with the midwife, maybe just with his mom, unassisted assisted, but it just brought me back to that, to the era of that time. And I love water.
Speaker 0 00:03:21 Thank you. Yeah, I olive water too. Awesome. That's a great choice. Thank you. Okay, so I know you began professionally studying midwifery at 16, but I'm curious to know, um, your personal connection to birth work, because like, it seems to be so young and to have that type of passion, it seems like it must be deeply rooted. So, uh, when did you first learn about midwifery? Well,
Speaker 1 00:03:53 I love this question and I've been trying to find an easy way to answer, but what I tell people about all of us and myself included, I'll stop myself there. Often we look back at our life. We see that we've been groomed from the beginning. So for myself, I'm going to say probably seven years old because at seven I began taking care of ill animals. Any dog that was sick, or I would find pigeons outside, I just would bring them home and try to fix them. By the time I was 10 and 11, I was reading books on how to take your dogs. I remember having a puppy that someone gave me, it was taken too soon from the house. And I became known of my community as a person to give sick animals to. So someone gave him that puppy. I don't know how I got it.
Speaker 1 00:04:34 My mom and dad, let me keep it. But remember, I have to, I read about how to take care of it. Getting up at night. You said, put a hot water bottle in the box next to it, wrapped into a natala. Did that to get a clock is I got a clock that had taking sound and then I had to wake up every so often with the warm milk in an I dropped defeated, just like I would do as a midwife, getting up the same comfort measures that puppy did die. And I, we did bury it as I continued on up until about probably 15 wanting to be a vet, always taking care of animals, you know, saw the puppies, born, saw kittens, born, uh, just missed the horse being born. And also I was, I was attracted to elder people who were ill. So even at the age of nine, I remember seeing Ms.
Speaker 1 00:05:14 Perriman, who was blind, where I grew up and I would always go to a house and sit, sit in the house. And she said, well, do you want the light on? And I realized that she sat in the dark because she couldn't see. And she even brought me to her, um, the, the seeing eye, uh, conference. So I learned how to do braille. And I remember wanting to write, <inaudible> a letter embryo. They give the little, the little machine that you would poked a hole. So I learned how to do, and I was going to one day, write him a letter I never did. So then fast forward to me wanting to be a vet. My mother died when I was 15 unexpectedly and I became Muslim a few weeks later, I became Muslim at 15, and then I left my dad's house who was Christian for whatever reason, that's another story.
Speaker 1 00:05:54 But I moved to a Muslim families home to live with them. And the woman who was, uh, the wife was older and she was actually pregnant, uh, having her fourth child. And I was just absolutely fascinated by her, loved his sister, sister, how to use self. You know, I remember her and she's like, so happy. I became a midwife. I would just take care of her, not taking her to sit around. I'm 16 or 15 asking all these questions. She gave me a book to read called emergency child with, let girl read this book and asked me all these questions. So anyways, I learned a lot from her. And then she said, you know what? You are so interested. Why don't you become an obstetrician? Which I had not really heard of. So I looked that I was going to be a vet all my life.
Speaker 1 00:06:31 That's all I read about. So I read about what obstetrician was said, okay, I'll become that. But then I went to go visit my uncle. Who said, why don't you come and midwife like, well, what's that? So I looked that up. And when I read about what a midwife was, somewhere along the line, I read about these black women who were midwives in the south who was spiritual. And, you know, the gods spoke to them. They pray, they pray during the burst. And they were just like giving, giving, giving, come, come see you, what? You have 15 kids and try to bring a sheet or try to bring greens out their yard. And the midwives met together on Sunday and they prayed and they worked together and it's like, oh, I want to be like them. And at the same time being in Roxbury, which is a black community at that time in Boston, they had the second largest infant mortality rate in the nation.
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Each state claims having the worst outcome, unfortunately, but for that year, uh, we had very high infant mortality rate. So I was learning about black midwife. I learned about black infant mortality at the same time as the black power movement. It's the civil rights movement is the rise of nation of Islam. Say all these wonderful things around, you know, taking the ownership, you know, do for self leadership, you know, back to Africa, like millions of things that happening in my world at the age of 15, that really shaped me, including my becoming Muslim, you know, and my name being Sheffield, which was given to me and chef FIA, a lot of who don't hear it, but it is one of the attributes, Josh Sheffey servant of the healer. So I'm a tool of chef FIA. So you know that name, that's fat. This someone gave it to me said, you know, you're a healer.
Speaker 1 00:07:57 I'm going to give you this name really meant a lot to me because I already knew that one to be a vet and realizing that really midwifery and birth work and veterinarian is it is all being servant of the healer of Elias, all about taking care of things that need help, whether it's a human or an animal or plant is it's the same. It's the same healing. It's the same thing. I'm going to be nice to a plant. I'm not going to break the branch off. I'm going to water it. I'm going to give it what it needs to comfort. So it could grow. And the same I'm going to do with the pregnant woman or similar to do with the animal, with the elder or a child. So that is my journey, that part. And then I had to go further. Once she told me to become a midwife and I learned what a midwifery was, well, what year is this?
Speaker 1 00:08:38 We're in the seventies. There were no black midwives around that. I knew. So it took me a while to try to find out even how to learn to do this was no way was in my community. That was doing it. So I was really the first black midwife. I'm going to say style of learning as 16. I didn't practice law. I was about really 20. It was a journey to learn. I wind up going back to school, going to college, taking pre-med courses and standing on the campus, talking to every black woman. Excuse me. Are you live life? Nope. Okay. Excuse me. Are you move white? And finally, a black lady from Uganda, African woman said, yes, I'm a midwife. Like, oh my God, I know you don't know me, but you have to train me. She just looked at who is this crazy girl here asked, give me this.
Speaker 1 00:09:19 You know, but I bothered her one thing, I'll tell you all consistency. My momma said the squeaky wheel gets the oil and I stayed on it. She was like, okay, okay, come over my house on Saturday. She began to give me my first class. So I have a nice story of learning with midwives and positive Africa, uh, Muslim midwives in Pakistan. In the end, I found some older midwives from, um, Alabama service. And then lastly, my dear friend, Majida amantadine we had a baby at the exact same time. I had a home birth of my son and the doctor said, oh, I just helped another black lady. He was a white Jewish guy. So I just helped another black woman have a baby. Um, a couple of weeks before you, I said, oh my God, give me her number. Cause nobody was having the babies at home.
Speaker 1 00:10:02 And the 1970s in Roxbury, like I was like, I thought the only person, I think she was a second person. So we met each other. She was from Alabama, my dad's from Alabama. Her mother was a midwife. She was a nurse and a midwife were just like maybe four years apart. And we just like, we just ran the city. After that, we had a blast. We formed a nonprofit, which has actually documented official childbearing group, the first nonprofit in the country that promoted home birth of black community as this form of self-determination to deal with the determine mortality is happening then is still happening today. So we did a lot of political work, but mainly we just ran around catching people's babies in their houses and training more black midwives.
Speaker 0 00:10:42 Yes. Wow. That is quite a story.
Speaker 1 00:10:47 So, you know, and
Speaker 0 00:10:48 It makes me think like what you were saying, like it really, you answered like a calling, you know, like you always cared about animals and plants and people. And so it's definitely seems from a law, you know, like that this is what you were supposed to do then that's amazing.
Speaker 1 00:11:05 Yeah. It's amazing when you can see it, you know, and like you said, on a spiritual level, you know, I really think the creator, I think a lot of that I was born to do this, but also that also I recognize I was born too. So it didn't shock me like, oh, like, oh, how'd you go from being a bit vague? How do you go from being a veterinarian to midwife? Well, it was accent, Zack, same work. And I was just being groomed. You know, how do you get up at 11 o'clock at night to take care of something like, like a meal, you know, someone's in labor, you know, every three minutes you're getting up to rub their back every 15 minutes, you're getting up because your transition contraction every three minutes. So you're getting up and you're staying there. So it was like a grooming to get up at night. I wake up so easy at night now, you know, since I was 11, I've been, I just wake up. So if you're in labor, that's fine with me. I'm just going to wake up and pop on over to your house. So I'm very grateful for the recognition and the experience that I had to do, what I do today. It counts and nothing's in vain. Everything is for a reason.
Speaker 0 00:11:56 Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And so, um, you know, just from what you're saying, and then realizing how long that you have been, uh, doing birth work, do you know how many babies you have helped bring into the world?
Speaker 1 00:12:10 So I tell people I've done, you know, I would say some hundreds, but not thousands because when I left Boston, Massachusetts in 1990 pregnant with my, uh, six child, I created the international center for nutrition, childbearing, which is the first, uh, national nonprofit international nonprofit that really created a movement. That's how I got the name, created this movement to promote black midwifery, you know, to elevate it as an independent voice. We're not part of man and not by American college, you know, nobody was like our own organization. And so that was my, I labored on that nonprofit in birth that, so that is what I was doing and not, was not able to do the birth, the actual physical birth and run this national organization that had, has done so much. And I would say that midwifery is about catching babies for sure. Which I love.
Speaker 1 00:13:05 But also I have, I have talked with thousands of women on prenatal counseling. You know how to find a midwife, what their rights are, the childbirth classes. Um, have, I did catch a baby six months ago here in Portland, every now and then someone catch me when I'm not traveling. So because of a before COVID I was traveling probably 17 times a year. So I was never, you know, I was, I did the doula trainings all over the country. So every two months I was someplace else in the country because of COVID I've been still. So someone say, I'm having a baby, like, Hey, perfect. I'm not going anywhere. I can help you. And she was just like 20 minutes from my house, which is always my ideal. Burrup when they close by, well, that's truly community midwifery because once the baby's born, I like to practice like the blackmail was I read about who came to your house every day and they clean your house.
Speaker 1 00:13:53 They change your bed, which I do. We run the bath water, wash the tub out for you. You know, we w we massage you. And I cook all my African centered postpartum meals and I bring them over. I make the teas while I'm there. I put the baby on my back, so mom can go to sleep. So I do that for like about 40 days. So if they are close to me, I can do a better job. I'm not driving the hour to get there and an hour to get back. So I do like to do bursts that are, I call community midwifery so I can do what I want to do for my, according to my, my training.
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Okay. Thank you. Okay. So speaking of your organizations, um, and in your teachings and lectures, I've noticed that the words traditional and full circle are prominent. Um, and I want to know what is traditional childbirth? What does, what do you mean by that? And what is a full circle birth worker?
Speaker 1 00:14:46 Those are good questions. So yes, traditional childbearing and of course, international center, plus there's no childbirth in Portland, Oregon in Boston, Massachusetts. It was the traditional childbearing groups. I like that word because that word means information passed on by word of mouth. And so African-Americans as a rule because we weren't allowed to read during enslavement and, you know, oral people. And even Africa, we have the green op where we are able to give, you know, long historical stories. So my teaching though, we do use evidence-based. We do use, we use literature, but mainly is traditions that are passed on by word of mouth. Because most of the things that we learn around the African-American midwife or the 19th, 20th century, most of it really is not in a book is really as come from years of talking to elder people, men and women over the years, to get the information of, you know, when someone was having a baby, you know, like my dad said, you know, automatically at, at nine, at eight months, you know, women would no longer pick anything up.
Speaker 1 00:15:45 You know, he came from the rural south 1913, where you were pumping and chopping wood automatically menu. They would take that over whether you were, uh, whether you were their wife or not, they started doing, they would just, that's just how they were raised. So the information is by word of mouth and then full circle. I use that word SMC full circle doula, because it has no beginning. It has no end because the African-American wife, again, this 19th century, she didn't have an end date with her work. You know, it says that she worked in two, she died, or she worked in two, that person died. So back then, midwives were not just working with pregnant women. That is actually a Eurocentric term because midwife is English. It means middle the middle to be with the wife, to be with the woman, to help them.
Speaker 1 00:16:30 It's not a bad thing, but for African-American midwives of old, maybe because of enslavement or whatever it was, we did everything. You know, we took your sick babies. We even pierced the ears and ax, Evelyn had a circumcise from a black midwife from Alabama. She taught me how to circumcise. Well, this is, they even did circumcision. So we did, we did a lot more. So it was full circle. And as we talk about the postpartum period that people now talking about, where, you know, before you had the baby, you just go home, nobody cared. That was never part of the African-American experience. Definitely knowing that the midwife, no, but the whole family knew how to take care of ever pregnant person. And I writing a book now, and I'm saying I'm in Boston and I a being pregnant, one of my babies and all my friends happy from the south.
Speaker 1 00:17:12 And they always send the same thing. I'll give you to go back home now to my mother. And that's also an African tradition. When you get pregnant, you go to your mom's house, you go back to your village because that's going to take care of you. And so these women get got to go home, which means your mother's cooking for you. She's rubbing your back. She's wrapping your stomach. She's holding the baby. She telling you it's okay. You know, lay down, don't stress out. You know, we'll get your, okay. And all the things that, uh, that a loving mother does for their daughter. And we know that when a person's nurtured after the birth, she's going to nurture her baby better. Because my mother died when I was 15. Like, dang, I don't, I'm not getting that. I just hear them tell these nice stories.
Speaker 1 00:17:46 They would come back later or African women, like they save up and then love comes. And for the, my mother's coming, that's the tradition, your mother columns. There was no doula. You know, your mother, your aunt, your auntie, this whole dual thing. I'm teaching them because we don't have it. But I have four girls. They didn't have any doula. How I'm the mom? I showed up and do my job, got hired some stranger. I know how to take care of my daughter. She go to hot water bottles. She got to hands handed. She got massage. And I fed her with three little boys. I've federal husband. I took them out to the park. I came back and gave her, her food. We sit and chit chat for a minute. Can you look tired and go to sleep? No, your friends ain't coming out right now.
Speaker 1 00:18:22 Tell him you can come back later. And you, you, you take your, your daughter and her mama don't look the same. My daughter-in-law, you know, my son's like, Hey, I got a ticket. She's in labor now from California's. I flew in from port on the California. And I CA I like to get dressed up. I came with, I think I had like a fur coat on still. I was like, no, she's just like, interesting. Thank you for being dressed up for my birth. So cute. Yes. Wow. Yes. I would like to get dressed up. I don't wear no scratch it, like laid out this time of celebration. You know, of course I took my shoes off and I got the coat off, but a lot to go on, like we're having a party. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Yes,
Speaker 0 00:19:02 Absolutely. Uh, so you've already shared a little bit, but I wanted to, um, hear from you some of the history, because I I've, you know, watched some of your lectures, um, which for our listeners, I would highly recommend you check out Ms. Jaffe as website. Should it be a monroe.com where she shares some of these lectures for free access? I've learned a lot from them. Um, but I've noticed like, especially now, like in the, in the last few years, there's been a lot of learning and also unlearning of, uh, of, and for African-Americans about our histories and cultures and our contributions to the world. And you've done so many lectures on the history of birth work in Africa, from Africa to the Americas and other parts of the world, and also in Islam. So I was wondering if you might share as briefly as possible. I know that's difficult, some of that history with us today and also, um, how do you see it? This history existing in contemporary birth practices.
Speaker 1 00:20:06 Thank you. So I don't, I've got much time we have, but let me know. Cause I do like I've been phone for 40 years. So when I get rolling, I stop free to say, because there's so much to share, but I would say if I could give like three main points about African tradition around birth, the first things that we show love. So I think as we've, besides, you know, can you do a Roman therapy at what acupuncture point doesn't matter if you can show love and compassion, that is that tradition. You know, the women are nice to the women who aren't labor, the Southern black midwives would call you baby and honey. And they would not make you feel bad that the third things that we have faith, my study, that, you know, we didn't have the same kind of fear of childbirth as we have today.
Speaker 1 00:20:47 You know, women were a lot stronger. It was just considered normal. It was considered God's work. It wasn't a big deal. In fact, there's a study that took place in the sixties. Why black women were, uh, less prone back then to go to prenatal care because they felt that it was not an illness. So it was normal. Why go to doc? I'm just pregnant. I'm okay. Which is a great attitude. Now we run everyone, all these ultrasounds, all these tests, and a lot of fear is involved. And the third point is that we birth standing up. So we did not lay down to traditionally in Africa and in the south women were walking around to the last minute. They didn't jump into bed right away. By the time they start working, they're close to eight and nine centimeters. And the women were always were birthings.
Speaker 1 00:21:25 I read these great books in the years of the research, they had quilts that they would throw down on the floor, even in the slave enslaved slave quarters, because that's what they remember that women would squat down, uh, to have their babies. And so women did not lay in the back, either squadron or the mainly they had the babies on all fours or they leaned over a chair. So those birth traditions of course prevent it, makes it easy for the baby to come out. We should be birthing using gravity anyways. That's why people are going to, you know, squatting and standing and all fours. And then we moved to, to the, to the, uh, people, having the babies in one and people love it. And I did have one water birth out of my seven, and I did not get out the tub at that point, but it was still not squatting, you know, was sitting on.
Speaker 1 00:22:09 So we don't tend to squat in the tub. But, um, those are the three things that I think I would let people know the most additional, you know, to show love and compassion for a laboring person, you know, keep her upright, encouraged to walk around as much as possible. Let us know that she's not sick. You know, teach a daughters, not to be afraid of having babies. We've been a society that we're afraid of our periods, where we're afraid of being women. You know, it was going to have a baby. I'm going to have a sister in section on my boyfriend's birthday. And I don't want the pain. I don't want to press with my breast and go and change my amazing things over the years. So trying to eradicate all that, and it's not our fault because the TV has perpetuated fear. Every show that you see of a woman having a baby, she's always dying and she's always been rescued by a doctor.
Speaker 1 00:22:51 We don't see it being rescued by a nurse and she's always on her back. So we only know what we see, you know, we're programmed. So finding ways to deep deprogramming ourselves so that we can go back to our full self having babies, but what's going to give us less problem. That's this year in sections and less interventions and more things that happen to your body, the more problems. Cause again, as we know, having a baby is not an illness, it's an experience. Maybe 9% of people will have a problem. Having a baby. Most pregnancies are problem-free and that we've been conditioned that black women are more prone to having maternal mortality, more prone to having early babies though, this has happened. It's just not because of genetics. We know for a fact, due to racism. So we have to address that. So then we have to address,
Speaker 0 00:23:39 Okay, thank you.
Speaker 1 00:23:42 I guess, alarmingly, uh, I, I, to use a serious seeing that's the one that we're told is, is good for, um, for anything around birth. But also I love that the little baby Jesus told his mother to shake the fresh dates on her while she was in labor. So of course the date, um, you know, it's the same thing I think is, you know, cause even Muslim women also buying into the fear, you know, but having more faith doesn't mean we don't use science, but now using Cron, uh, you know, even prostration as long as you can. I see women sitting at their desk, they do what you have to do. If a medical problem, we should push ourselves. If we can to mix a lot tradition as much as we can, because every time you go down, it gives the baby space to churn.
Speaker 1 00:24:27 And that's the exact same position that you use. If you're having a breach, they make you do that. Oh, I'll tell you to do that. So the baby can flip from butt to head first. So it is a good position if you can hold it. But of course always, you know, use your, um, your scent. Use your reason loss. If you don't feel good, definitely sit in a chair or sit on the floor. And the other thing too, I want to say, when people make us a lot who are Muslim, we can hold our babies. Babies don't should not be crying when we make a lot. Cause the props will. Slum said that when you make them prayer and a baby cries, the EMA should shorten the prayer in order not to give them other distress. That's the Hadif. So it's a well-known one. So when the baby's crying, women should pick their babies up. We're we're supposed to let your baby cry when you mix a lot. That's not pleasing in my opinion, to create it because allows about mercy and compassion, kindness and sensibility. That's a new baby. Pick your baby up. And you know, all my kids may lot. They all, every single one, they held them, they go down with me back up and they never cried and it was wonderful. And they grew up making a slot as babies because I was holding them to do it.
Speaker 0 00:25:31 Yes. That makes sense. Okay. So I want to talk about, uh, the black maternal and infant health disparities in America. Um, we do know that black women are the standard statistic I know of is three to four times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. And that America has extremely high mortality rates for a developed country. So I know a lot of the statistics are bleak and they add to a culture of trauma for black Americans that gets so much attention in the media. But I see in your work and your approach to black maternal health, there's this push towards a culture of hope and healing and wellness. And, um, you know, I think everything about like your teaching style and the way you present and share your knowledge on your platforms is affirming and reaffirming that we, as black people, as black women, black men, black families, can overcome these statistics and improve our birth outcomes.
Speaker 0 00:26:40 And I believe it, and I, and I see it, but I, but I often wonder, you know, how do we make this the norm? You know, I'm thinking about the challenges within our communities. Like for myself, when I was pregnant with my son, when I told people I was, you know, I was going to have a midwife and I was going to, I wanted to have a, uh, an unmedicated birth. I got a lot of criticism, you know, I was laughed at, I was made fun of, you know, it was like, you're right, this isn't going to happen. You know? And so I feel like there's like a lot of distrust and ignorance of midwifery and doulas and home birds. And, you know, and then there's the external challenges, right? The medical racism, the medical violence that women are experiencing in hospitals across the country. So I I'm wondering how do we overcome these challenges? How do we continue to fight for black families?
Speaker 1 00:27:35 And that's what surprises me when we talk about from Islam perspective, you know, I'm telling them, uh, the Muslim, well, first I have to say, when I did midwifery in Boston, the majority of my, of the famous Esther were Muslim. They were furnish of Islam for sure. And Orthodox. That was the most women, but that was a long time ago that, that I don't see that the same anymore. There's been a lot of, we say fear has come in since, but you know, I was with tell the brothers, no, you want your wife to have privacy. Why don't you should, you should want a midwife. You don't want some male doctor walking in on her. So I would try to use that approach. But also to be honest, since I have talked to the moms for years and my husband's a man, and so he knows I've been in his ear, why are we not?
Speaker 1 00:28:14 Why are we not at the, at the member talking about pregnancy and birth Muslim perspective, we could because that's what people hear. And when the husbands and sons in the women here, the benefit, the conversation goes on, I've done the same thing, the Christian community and the Jewish, why are we not? You know, we talk about breast. Does this pink, this oh, is called pink day for Susan G Komen around breast cancer in the church. We have HIV day. We have so many days that the churches have taken on, but I had never heard them take on infant, mortality, breastfeeding, or mature mortality, even breastfeeding of Islam. I'm seeing sisters breastfeed. It says two years in a Cron. I'm not seeing two years. I'm seeing people that mass Jade were separated using a bottle. When I asked, are you still breastfeeding? Say, yeah, I just want them all.
Speaker 1 00:29:02 So I said, okay, you know, I'm very opinion like, well, you can still breastfeed here. Um, and encouraging women to breastfeed their children at the mass Jude eat. They have to go, you know, turn their back over. They want to do it. So I think that's the first and we really need to have a call to action within our own faith based community, whether it's Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam. But if you are black, we need this message to be saying the same thing. Sisters, brothers you'd be breastfeeding your children. And only one time in New York, I went to Juma and there was an email who talked about breastfeeding. If I wasn't most, I would have hugged that guy, right? Oh my God, you want me to stand on that kid? I was like, yeah, she, she didn't have it for a year. The brother he talked about in the points of having your daughters and wives and breastfeed, don't get that.
Speaker 1 00:29:43 I mean, first time since I've been missing more than my, my life, since I was 15, I don't get my age before my whole life. I've outlived my 15 years. So only one time. And that's a shame only one time. If I heard, uh, emo talk about the benefits, but yet it's in the Koran to wean your child to take two years. So we're not in my opinion. I didn't wanna get going on because you can see, I get a little irritated to talk about stuff and we're not living up to them. That can make a huge impact with via babies born early. And you're breastfeeding. It's going to save your baby's life. If you have breastfeeding is going to help even hemorrhaging. That's why for home birth, you have to breastfeed. It causes the oxytocin to be released. It's going to reduce stress is just that alone is a first step for helping our babies are born too small and helping women not to, um, hemorrhage and make them have to sit down because only you can breastfeed.
Speaker 1 00:30:33 That's your gift from the creator to sit down and do nothing. And making sure that a husband's famous say you're breastfeeding, right? Leave me alone and take care of me because I'm doing my job. Now you need to do your job, which is make sure I have food shelter in a nice environment. So I can produce milk and not say, well, you know, you can just give them a bottle or I'll pump your breast so I can do it. And you can go back to work in the kitchen. No, you're not pump you off. That is your only hope of sitting still. So, you know, getting a bottle I'm breastfeeding. So those that's one easy thing that we could do, but, you know, and, and, and teaching our children, boys and girls early, the normality of pregnancy so that we can get rid of the fear and how to take care of ourselves.
Speaker 1 00:31:15 I've met so many women, even Islam who are anemic, like everyone has low iron, and that's the major health problem besides headaches. If you're not pregnant and low energy, once you get pregnant, it causes even more problems. So I would always tell people, we have to look at pre conceptional health. How do we get our, and the new study just came out. It was on my Facebook page, cheffing row consulting, Facebook page. It came from pub med, and we think it's just women. But now the same men who have poor health have a fractured sperm and they create embryos that are unhealthy. That's why it takes two to make the baby. And so it's not just the woman's fault. Something happens. It's both parties have equal responsibility for being in good health. So we need our sons to eat well, you know, and not be around secondhand smoke.
Speaker 1 00:32:02 So I think nutrition early in life, you know, teaching again, like I said, I have four daughters. I've taught them all your life. That once you start having you immense, did you have to eat green foods every day, you have to take this, this kind of diet. Otherwise you're going to be anemic. And fortunately, none of them are, I was asking them and my sons, cause then they bought the one in the midwife home. They already understand. So, you know, the ones that got married, you know, I told him, interview your wife, when you get married, does she want a home brew that she'd been invested in for two years? Like, don't say later you could, these are the things that you want to ask as a, as a man, you know, what do you want your potential wife to do that you believe in around having a healthy birth?
Speaker 1 00:32:37 So of course my husband's my son's wives. They all had home birth. Cause that was important to them. They talk with their earlier. Would you have your baby at home? If we, if we get married and I think that they said, no, they wouldn't marry him. So I don't know if it's pressure or not, but at least have the conversations. No argument later. And of course I always tell the woman is your right to birth where you want. Cause you're having it. Uh, in terms of the maternal mortality, you know, we have to learn to, um, ask questions about the provider. Like, you know, how long have you been a doctor? How many mothers have died in your care? Do you recognize really? Do you recognize hemorrhaging? You know, are you okay working with a black woman and with a black man, my husband and my son and my boyfriend, whoever, you know, how you protect?
Speaker 1 00:33:18 How will you protect me when I come through the hospital? Have maybe what you do to make sure that I'm okay, that I'll be heard. That's what they say. That the problem was that, not that we don't know what the problem is. We do. We walk in, Hey, I'm having a headache from hepatitis and bleeding too much. I don't feel right. And they sent us back home. You know, the stories are horrendous on my website. Chefy monroe.com under blogs. I talk about the stories of Shalonda who went back like five times in her blood. There's like was 200 over 80, 180. That's like illegal number, literally, you know? And they kept sending her home. So a mother found a stroked out and dying and dead on the floor of the poor husband in the hospital saying, my wife's afraid. She thinks she's bleeding too much.
Speaker 1 00:33:57 The nursing, we don't have time right now. She hammered right in front of her husband, the blatant racism in the health care system. It's on every level, maternal mortality, cardiovascular for black men, you know, portray cancer breast. It's everywhere. It's not one thing. And I think when I say full circle and healer, we can't just hone in on one thing because we have to fix the system. If the whole system is broke, we're going to keep getting her on different levels. Whether it's pediatric poor care for our children or our seniors not getting the right care or the pregnant woman, I want to see from a, from a holistic approach, we'll fix the systems. And no matter what I have as a black person, I'm going to get quality, equitable care. And so that is my message that we just keep pushing on everything, make sure we're voting, you know, get to know your legislators because that's also real, there were a couple of bills that just come out and as lost the name of it.
Speaker 1 00:34:53 But it's on this 12, uh, maternal mortality bill that just came out, they redid it. So there's a lot of good things in it, of how they want to address, um, systemic racism with X. They didn't say that they said a whole bunch of things they're going to do is yeah. It's the mom meet mommy, uh, Boosie act 2021. And it's the black maternal health, um, mom and his mom, his bus act includes 12 bills and maternal mortality and close racial and ethnic disparity. So I went through it. It's really good, but I still want to hear, um, systemic racism. And how do we hold hospitals accountable who have a high rate of maternal mortality for black women? Because the CDC says that quote, 60%, uh, maternal mortality is preventable. That means 60%. That's huge. That's more than half people would die and should not be dying.
Speaker 1 00:35:46 It could have been prevented. That means that the black one would dying should not have died, which you already know. And so therefore, if they're dying, what are we going to do to hold these hospitals accountable for it? Because they're getting federal funding and other types of money and how do we hold the doctor accountable now? Yes. Granted things do happen as a midwife. You know, I've done the best I could and some babies aren't gonna make it. And I think that's where my Islam comes in. Sometime we know that what, in a layman law, he walked with June from a lobby common to all allow, we all return, but at the same time, tie your camel. Have I done the absolute best? I ignore that person. That's different, you know, no, I didn't ignore the everything, but you say, Hey, go back home. It's not a big deal. So I'll end there. I'll just ask another question.
Speaker 0 00:36:29 Yes. Thank you so much. Yeah, that that's, and that kind of plays into my next question about, um, fear in birth. You know, I was thinking about, um, you know, again, when I was pregnant with my son, uh, social media, wasn't really a big thing at the time. And, you know, and I recognize now how fortunate I was to have a quiet, peaceful time. You know, like I, I went, I did the walking every day. I went to my local park and went for long walks and, you know, enjoy meals. And it was, I had a mostly peaceful time, you know, I didn't know about black maternal health disparities at the time, you know? And, and in a way I'm glad for that. But I think about how different things might be for me if I was preparing for birth now. And, uh, I think I would have a lot more fear. So thinking of that, like, what would, what would you say to, you know, to, especially to black people who want to have families, but they're afraid because of what they're hearing about birth trauma and mortality?
Speaker 1 00:37:32 Well, I, I always tell people that, first of all, it's your God-given right to, to, to reproduce if you choose to. And I wouldn't let the system dictate whether or not I can have a challah not. And always when I see a client, they say the same thing. Now the client spoke with spoke with, and I have to tell them to say out loud, that's not going to happen to me. Like don't own that. You know, most black women, by the way, uh, not dying, yes, it's a high number, but most aren't, you know, most are living to raise their chosen. So we had to put things in perspective and you look at statistics, you have to look at how many it's, you know, it's 150 out of 100,000. There's still too many. That's how you measure it. So if you look at how many, you know, per 100,000 years, it's harder than white people, but it's definitely not nine, 9%.
Speaker 1 00:38:17 You have to put it in that perspective. And God bless those. Who've who've who lost their lives, having a baby and you know, and may God help their families. So I don't want to gate the severity cause that's my daughter, I'm traumatized, you know, but, but as a researcher, I had to look at the bigger number to tell in this audience that most likely it's not going to be. You, you have to tell yourself that, that you are, well, you got to own that health. You got to have that faith that you're not gonna have the problem. And you're going to ask the right questions. If you do have the problem, you gotta listen to your care provider. Um, and then follow direction. You're going to find an African-American midwife, African-American obstetrician, African-American nurse practitioner, these all who can live a babies African-American naturopathic physician.
Speaker 1 00:39:01 And at the end of the day, you're going to get a dual, if not get any white midwife who who's kind to you, because not even about the call at the end of the day, any midwife has a better outcome as a rule compared to a medical provider, because this, their training's different. So I, you know, get who you can get. If you can find a Muslim provider, but you know, interview your people and know that you're going to be okay. I said, Hey, I had seven kids and like yourself, we came up fine. Most of the people I know have come out fine. Yes. Uh, at the same time, you know, just to put the truth out there, I did meet a woman a couple of years ago. She's like 29. And she lost three friends in two years to mature mortality. That was like a shocker.
Speaker 1 00:39:38 Yeah. Right. We can't, we can't, you know, that's the thing about America. They make us afraid because we have everything too much. You know, we're more prone for COVID-19 right now, we're having more, we actions or COVID-19 vaccination, we're more prone for diabetes. Like, you know, like, what are you trying to say? Like, should we just like jump off the earth, everything personally, I'm not going to own that. I'm not going to own those such as like what a white people get in, by the way, the maternal mortality rate for white women is climbing and the highest rate of suicide. And no one talks about what they do. They have the highest rate of child accidents for their children. The kids are always falling out windows and run across the street, hit by cars. And so, because they don't focus on them, they focus on us. And so they don't talk about Latina what's happening in their community. What did them on prone or the Asian or the native American or the Russian. And we have to ask that question. Why always focusing on us? Why do we have all these problems?
Speaker 0 00:40:31 Yes. That's, that's a great point that you make, you know? Um, and that's why, you know, I know for like, for myself, like I, you know, I'm in contact with a lot of people in the birth work world and you know, I follow you on Instagram. So I have that constantly feeding me hope, you know, in rec and realizing like that's in the knowledge that that's not the case, you know that, but I know it's definitely, uh, who are you? Who are you connected with? Makes a big difference. You know, what are you following?
Speaker 1 00:41:02 And also just know that these statistics are coming because of neglect. So it was different if I'm like, oh, I'm just going to die because I'm black. There's something wrong with me, which is how they're trying to promote it. But it's not that I'm black and healthy, but the people taking care of me give poor care and that's the problem. So then we have to find out, I guess, so we have to interview the person because we're not genetically inferior. We actually actually very strong people as a race, but very strong, which is why they brought us to this country to work because the other people they try to bring in and they're and die from European disease. And then we did not. So we have to remember how strong we really are. Genetically. And even babies were born too small. African descent tend to live and other babies don't.
Speaker 1 00:41:43 So we don't hear about the, the strength base. We have to go from resilience. Like, you know, we're strong in a baby's are strong and most likely going to be fine. If you're hearing a lot of bad news, like turn it off, don't listen to it. And that's why I do try to talk about, I do present from a strength base approach. I'm not going to feed into the negativity. That's not true. They're not saying the truth. The reason why African-Americans have more help on because we have an equity and equity means that by design they're causing problems with certain communities, which has majority African descent, native American, other groups can access good food, easy. You know, housing complex is built around, uh, toxic sites. This is a fact, you know, our schools are full of teachers who could not work in the suburb and wind up coming to ours with teach our kids who aren't qualified.
Speaker 1 00:42:33 And then because of one problem, they put detectors in our schools. So our kids are being treated like criminals at age eight and five years old. That's the problem, you know, and that's not teaching our kids black history at birth, you know who they are to give them the information because that's, I mean, a lot of this is luck. Cause again, I grew up in a very blessed time. I come from time where you can go through black power as the era where James Brown was singing, see a lot in black and I'm proud and you got people with dashikis and beautiful hair raising their fist up. And you know, that, that affects you as a child. And I grew up with that. So my mother was like that. So I'm very, it's already in me that I'm okay and I'm going to be okay. But if you haven't heard that you didn't learn it and was setting our kids out of our communities for a better education with the only child of color, the only black child in the school, because the Spanish emergent or Japanese immersion, then our kids were affected by that.
Speaker 1 00:43:23 They are. And so we have to, we have to counteract it. So even when Asian kids went to, I went to Abraham Lincoln school in the seventh grade, a lot of Asian kids went there, Chinese children, but every Saturday or every day, they had to go to Chinese school to maintain their Chinese CISM with their language, their people, their accomplishments, you know, the Jewish people go to Hebrew school, you know, on Saturday. So we don't have a school that we send our kids to, to learn about who they are. So we hear this stuff and like, oh my God, I'm, I'm genetically inferior epigenetics. You know, I'm, I'm industrial complex in this, like, you know, majority, we don't know what's going on. And so we have to educate. And I think for birth workers, a full circle, the main thing I teach in my train is Zack.
Speaker 1 00:44:04 What you're hearing that Buell SMC, full circle doula, if nothing else empower your fam with, with the facts information and in love of self, as an African descent person to love herself as a human being. And that is going to go a lack of you feel good about yourself. You know, that you have value, you have a right to be on this earth and to live your life in the best way that the creator gave you. Then you're more armed to go in there and definitely include the father and not educated is not a woman's movement in the, in the self of the black midwives. It was a family movement. It was community, never was a black midwife. Only with the woman. There's so much documentation for always pulling the man aside, talking to him, educating him, comforting him, supporting him as well. So he could go back into his home and do a good job. And so that's what we need. We need a strong family because families make communities and the community makes the world. And that's what I promote in my, in my trainings, based on the tradition of the 20th century and the 19th century African-American midwife.
Speaker 0 00:45:05 Yes. Thank you. And just to kind of bring it home, because that was actually my last question about community. Um, you know, like for P for those like us who are like in this world, right. With babies and moms and things like that, you know, I'm thinking about people who are not in those worlds. You know, like when I tell things that I noticed, the people who, you know, they're like, they know nothing about that. Right? So, but I, but I think we all play a role. You know, um, if, if we care about black women, if we care about black babies, this is where it starts. So for, for our listeners, like how can someone, who's not in that world, how as an individual, how can they help black mothers and black families?
Speaker 1 00:45:51 So I'm going to answer that, but just want to say really quick, there is a movement I feel in this nation, that's really, um, demising the power of, of, of the family. And particularly the mother, because we look at African artifacts, um, and even Islam when the prophecy, and they said about who knew, who shall worship the lot. He said, your mother, your mother, your mother, and then your fathers. And it's an African tradition. Every artifact you see as a rule, as a pregnant woman, a lot of things about women in Africa. So a lot of reference for women here. There's no reference for women. And also we're moving towards animals. People say, now that there are mother of five dogs, every commercial we see is a dog selling a car. Literally, if you look at these dogs everywhere, you hardly see, I see I'm in the airport.
Speaker 1 00:46:36 All the dog could just have mascot. No children, just dogs is teaching us. So is this psychological movement happening right now that people aren't aware that this, so now we have people like, I don't want any kids. I got three dogs, Blackwood. I got four dogs. You know, they don't want children, but not it's okay. You don't want, but you don't like children and you don't respect. People choose to have children. That's a big problem that we never had historically, historically with our kids or not. We value children. And when I talked to African women, I say, I have seven. And they're like, oh my God, you're so blessed. A hundred. They'd make a big deal. I talked to American women. It's like, why did you have so many, you know, I don't get a compliment. You know, it was like, oh, you know, you did something wrong.
Speaker 1 00:47:12 So it's the American shift. And because when this country were going along with it, I don't know if it's, uh, if it's the, the, the, the, uh, cryogenics or the planned parent on this tone or whatever has happened. But there is a shift and this country is getting us more and more not to support families. So we're taught to go to college, get degree, get a house, get a car, get an iPhone, you know, and make money. So children, not in the conversation, who's having all the kids right now are the Russian immigrants. They having very large families because America wants to white Knight. This country, I did cultural competency. We knew that in 2050, it's supposed to be a country of color and white folks by the way, are not having children. And they're the oldest group in the country. There's more older, white because they're not reproducing.
Speaker 1 00:47:53 But, um, and we still are Latina are, but right now, they bring in tons of Russian families in this country. And they have like nine and eight children. And so the second generation they're going to be white Americans. It's going to bring the numbers back up, Oregon. The second largest language is Russian and in the state. So no one talks about it, but focusing on dark skinned, Mexicans not coming in, you know, Joslin, Haitians can't come in, Africans can't but the Europeans are coming in my crazy by choice. So just to be aware, there's a shift going on. All I can say is people need to wake up, educate and know that if you don't got no black babies, you don't have no black race. You don't have no black communities that alone. If you care about not wanting to become extinct, that alone should motivate us.
Speaker 1 00:48:34 Um, second is that duty. As you know, we say we're a Christian or Muslim, or by high, all these face, we call ourselves. Well, you know, that is a creative reproducing, that energy. So that in itself is a spiritual act to take care of somebody and be kind to them. At least if they're having a baby, you know, to, to congratulate people, don't know if you got a congratulations, but I talk to women all the time who are black, who combat congratulates. Like nobody, I didn't get no congratulations. No one says, oh, why are you having a baby? Are you sure you want it? Did you plan it? These are all American questions. Historically. You just say congratulations. Or we will really say what we would say, God bless you 50 years ago. I'm proud of all my God, God bless you. But we don't say that now.
Speaker 1 00:49:16 It's like, you're going to keep it, you know, do you plan it? Um, all kinds of questions that are personal, none about I'm happy for you. So we had just, I, I can't really express because I just see where we're headed, but I'm glad you brought the question up. And I hope that sororities and, you know, individual professional women professional man can see this as a call to action that we support our community to procreate. They choose to, and that we help them and not judge them and not say, this is your problem. You wanted to have a baby. Don't ask me to babysit. Or she shouldn't have had, if she couldn't afford it, all of these things that people say, well, she's only 19. When in fact she was raped by her uncle or father or brother, we didn't even talk about that. And that's every faith, you know, Christianity, Islam everywhere.
Speaker 1 00:50:01 You know, it's like, oh, we blame the young girl. And in fact, somebody exploited her and she's too scared to say, and we're too naive to even ask the question, oh, believe her at which she tells us. So we have a lot of work to do. And again, that's what I'm all about. Have I have been about will continue to be about, I think a lot of that, you know, I have this blessing in me that I promote what I'm talking about to everybody consistently. And, um, I'm proud that so many people have taken that training. And so many people having the exact same conversation now that I am around the country. So is no longer is, is what it should be. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's percolating and I am optimist. And I do believe that in time we will do a full circle because life is a circle full stock.
Speaker 1 00:50:45 Everything goes around. So I think we'll start coming back around because you are having this show. And so many people having podcasts on this conversation on new bills are passing. We get more black midwives, more doula trainers, you know, more men alike supporting their daughter, wife, et cetera, to be a midwife, but to have a home birth or to have a water birth or wherever they choose to. So I see a change. I see, I see things getting better, but keep your conversations going, like more podcasting. We have to just keep it, you know, more articles. We could get a Beyonce or Erica Baidu to write a song about this, or, you know, who's was the most popular to get to the masses because we're not we're on Google and Google teachers, nothing by the way.
Speaker 0 00:51:28 Yes. Yes. Well, thank you. Yeah, that, I'm an optimist too. I, I do believe that, you know, um, I see so much, you know, so much good, you know, and, and like you said, the good, it doesn't get as much attention, but it is more so than what, what we see. That's not good. So, uh, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your wisdom with us. And I hope people are inspired. Yes. All right.
Speaker 1 00:51:59 So thank you really quick. If you go to my website, chef FEMEN road.com under midwifery, there's a free chat and you can print out a desk and the history of all the work that black midwives have given, and we do give out a scholarship every year up to $2,000 to any black midwife students. So we'll be announcing that again pretty soon and to be sure to join on e-newsletter. So again, if you go through the website, subscribe, put your name in there, and I'm doing some recipes occasionally for my book. I'm going to be in there and
Speaker 0 00:52:28 Just update. So yeah. Thank you. Yes, you do have a lot of great recipes. I love all the food that she share. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning into this episode of on the square real talk on race and Islam in the Americas. A special podcast series brought to you by step a little square and the maiden we give. Thanks to our special guest today. Shafi I'm on the road. You can find more information about what we discussed, including links and more by visiting staphylo square.com/on the square or the maiden.com/podcast. Our theme music was created by phonetic on beats Salaam-Alaikum. And thank you for listening.
