Episode Transcript
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Hey everyone. Islam alaykum. Welcome to the Islamic Mary podcast. So, as you know, Zachariah Zecaria foreshadows the story of Maryam. And part of this podcast has been exploring the various verses of Zakaria. Before we get to the story of Maryam, this led me to the article by Maria Bar entitled Redeeming Zechariah. In her article, Maria talks about the issues of how the Quran can help us better understand the biblical narrative and how his silence or his muteness should not always be seen in a negative light. Today I sit down with Maria to talk about her article and issues of silence, suffering, and the connection between biblical and Quranic figures.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Hello everyone. I want to welcome Maria Bardi to the Islamic Mary podcast. Maria, welcome. Hey, thank you for having me here, Samira. We got opportunity to meet at the Catholic Biblical association and I've been in touch with you. In particular, I've been super interested in your work on the Quran, the Bible, specifically Zachariah Zechariah. So this is a person who, as you know, is connected to Maryam. I'm writing a book on the Islamic Mary and in many ways Zechariah Zakaria foreshadows the story of Mary and Maryam in the Quran. So can you maybe start speaking a little bit about your spiritual biography and how you got into this work about the Quran and Bible and Christian Muslim relations?
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So I am a creator Catholic, basically, meaning I.
I was raised Catholic from birth and I grew up in Georgia, which is the Bible Belt, but there's not a lot of Catholics there. So growing up just being aware of the other. Right. So as interacting with other Christian denominations, understanding the misunderstandings or confusions that can arise from that just made me more attuned. So when I went to pursue Biblical studies at the Catholic University of America and I was at a conference, the SBL conference, and came upon a section on chronic exegesis. And I was really drawn into the discussion and wanted to know more. But really the engagement being people who didn't share similar faith beliefs but could come together and really discuss in a meaningful manner points of contact and points of dissonance. Right.
That it's okay that there's gaps, that there's okay. That there's bridges that can't fully be crossed, we acknowledge them and realize, okay, well, maybe there's not actually a bridge here, but that doesn't stop the conversation.
So from there I started pursuing more intentionally studies with the Quran while continuing my Biblical Studies degree. And so that's that's it led to my dissertation incorporating Quran in Arabic, studied some classical Arabic to do that. And that's been a lot of focus of my research since then.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Oh, fascinating. So would you say, like, your interest in the Quran Bible was more textual, or did you actually have a lot of relationships with Muslims and Muslim communities or.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah, it was more textual. That's where it began. Right. And then as a result, I started getting involved in interreligious dialogues and, you know, getting to know more the people, the adherence of other faith traditions that, I mean, honestly, in Georgia growing up, I did not encounter.
And so, yeah, even now I'm taking part in Catholic Muslim dialogue in Chicago that's sponsored by the American Islamic College as well as the Archdiocese of Chicago and the Catholic Theological Union. And so being able to really get to know people, that's even within just biblical conferences, that's been a lot of my focus of, hey, these are people that, if I hadn't studied this, I would never encounter.
Something brought them to what they're studying. There's a passion, there's something that just calls to them to do this work.
And I find that appealing. And so I love going to conferences because I get to meet people and get to know people in this way. And then within a religious dialogue, it's the same. But just really taking me outside of what I know and really informs and hopefully makes me better in how I talk about the Bible or not making assumptions and so forth.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Oh, so. So that's interesting. So it started off as more textual, and then it's turned into more relationships with real communities and interfaith dialogue. Is that correct?
[00:05:23] Speaker C: Yes. And then returning to the text and it goes back and forth. This is very, like, cyclical.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, I definitely identify with that. The idea of, you know, reading the text and going back to the community, and then along the way you make new friends and relationship. So that's, yeah, definitely something I've seen in my own experience.
So can you speak about your interest in biblical and chronic figures? So there are, as you know, a whole subsection of folks that write on the Quran and Bible, but there is even a section of that they're interested in the shared stories between the Quran and the Bible.
So, yeah.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: How do you.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: How are you drawn to certain figures like Zachariah or Job and so forth?
[00:06:10] Speaker C: Yeah, so narratives, stories are what really draw people in. So in terms of getting people to really be receptive and understand, narratives are just an easy entryway into that conversation.
And so taking a look at the biblical figures that we know, we think we know, or we take for granted. And trying to look at them again through the light of, say, the Quranic presentation of these figures to go back and shed light like, okay, what have I assumed about the biblical text? What have I taken for granted that now I'm looking at it from a different perspective, Reading it through the lens of the Islamic tradition so that, you know, again, taking for granted, like, oh, yeah, this is clearly what this means, or this is clearly what's going on. And seeing it from the perspective outside of my tradition lets me gather new insight. So that was, for me, helpful. But then also in terms of, okay, talking with other people, especially other Catholics or Christians, when they have questions about the Quran, bringing in the narrative, bringing like, there's not, you know, there's. It's not as extensive as what you have in the Bible, but it's. It allows for a starting point for getting to know. And they're like, oh, I didn't know that. And it just, it kind of brings everything to right. And where they have this sense of like, oh, so far away. It's like, that's actually more proximate than what we thought and it's not the same, but it's not so distant either.
So I can. That's part of it.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: No, I love that point because a lot of my students come into my classes on the Quran with some type of knowledge of the Bible, so they're trying to connect with this text. So actually talking about shared stories opens the store. Like, oh, I've heard about Abraham before, I've heard about Mary and Jesus. So it allows them to kind of engage more with the material. And I also love the idea of teaching with stories because even in Islamic studies, we often sometimes start with the five pillars and rituals, but often stories are actually the way people learn and understand faith traditions. So, yeah. So I love this, your focus on Zachariah and Zachariah particularly. I got opportunity to read your article Redeeming Zechariah. And Zechariah is such an interesting figure because oftentimes in, say, the Crown Bible, we focus on the main ones like Adam or Abraham, Abrahamic figures, or Mary and Jesus. So some of these other figures kind of go under the radar. So how did you. How were you drawn to him and his story?
[00:08:56] Speaker C: Well, I initially did some comparative work on Mary and Miriam and in the Quran and the annunciation scenes. And so I had come across some research on Zachariah, but I hadn't actually spent a lot of time on that. And Then there was a conference that came up that kind of presented opportunity to do more comparative work.
And the. And the purpose of the conference was reading the Bible in Islamic context. That was. That was the title of the conference. And so I was like, okay, so how do I read the Bible in this light that might shed. Might shed some light into. I'm understanding the biblical text. And Zachary has always been kind of this figure where I've never been fully satisfied with the interpretations that I've come across, which is basically that, you know, he received the angelic message, he questioned it, and was punished for asking for a sign. Right? And then you have Mary and she, in a way, also questions, but it's not stated in the same way. And the response to her is positive.
So seeing Zachariah as kind of a negative to Mary's positive is what drove me to really look at Zachariah more closely, especially because I had already come across within the Quran that Zacharya is portrayed positively. Right. And so then I had that in the background. So I was like, well, let me just delve into this and see how first how Zachariah is understood today, for the most part. And then going to the Quranic text, seeing how Zachary is portrayed, described how he functions, like a lot of it. A lot of what I do is looking at the text and how the figures function within the text and what is it that they're revealing and then going back and looking and unearthing positive portrayals of Zachary and looking at the end of the chapter as a. As a complete whole for understanding Zachary and I, just a linear progression, but actually a more deeper connection across the narrative of Zachariah.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Oh, wow. So could you tell us then, what is the traditional view? You kind of alluded to this already, but what is the traditional view of Zechariah and the Bible and biblical studies? And then maybe we can talk about how he's presented in the Quran.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: So what I had come across the most was Zachariah's muteness at asking, how can you know, how can I know that this is going to happen is a punishment for his unbelief? And we have the angel who pretty much states that, right? And that's. So there's some ground for that sense of this is a negative action on Zachariah's part.
However, then there's the sense of, okay, once he writes down, you know, after the eighth day after John the Baptist birth, he goes, they take him to be presented, to have a circumcision.
There's a question of the naming of the child. And he writes his name is John, which is what the angel had said the name would be. And once that happens, he's able to speak. And so in terms of some interpretations that I came across multiple times, like, oh, this is the restoration of his faith.
And it always struck me a little odd because I didn't necessarily think that that was his faith that was restored.
I felt that after being mute for so long, his faith was probably where it needed to be. And especially after the birth of his son, like that, we have full confirmation that the angel's words came to be. So there was something more going on with the mutinous lifting at that point. So connecting it to his. His action rather than his interior state of faith.
That's one of the common interpretations, is he had lack of faith. Then he. His mutinous is restored because he has faith at that moment. And then he proclaims what is known in like, in Catholic speak as the Benedictus. And it's. And I'll go. And I go into that later on in my article as to why what this is, like, how it's.
How it's used within worship.
But in this Benedictus where he's praising God, it's the first thing that he does is he praises God. And then he. It's like big picture to small picture talks then about the mission of his son by the end of this passage. But really what's driving it is God's plan of salvation.
And you know, really leaning into that in language that reflects what he wasn't able to do at the beginning when he was mute, which was give the priestly blessing.
Here in the Benedictus, he's using language that evokes that. So it kind of completes his role as priest, but then also his role as prophet because he's engaging in prophetic activity, the Spirit comes upon him.
So just.
I gotta. I get really excited about this.
So that's. That was some of the connections that I saw. But I thought, you know, there's something more going on here. But generally the interpretation is more. He was lacking, but now, you know, he's. He's where he needs to be. And a lot of comparisons made to the phrasing of the question, like why Mary wasn't punished because hers was not egocentric. She says, how will this be? As opposed to Zachariah saying, how will I know?
Which seems to be more egocentric. So that's seen as like, oh, maybe that's where the negative aspect of his question led to his punishment. And Having that egocentric emphasis removed in Mary's questions, why she didn't get punished.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: So his questioning is almost seen as a historically or traditionally as a sign of disbelief or unbelief that he doesn't understand the power of God. Is that correct?
[00:15:05] Speaker C: Yes, that is more too focused on him. And, and oftentimes there's this comparison of he should have known better. He should have known how God has worked with barren couples in the past. And especially highlighting Abraham and Sarah as examples of this. And so that's why he's punished, because he knows his tradition. He should have.
He should have known better than to question that.
And so that also. So in terms of how then this connects with, like, things that don't gel. For me looking at the Greek Septuagint to look at how Abraham questions God and when God is promising land to him and his progeny, Abraham says, how will I know? It's almost. It's the exact phrasing of Abraham that we have in Zachariah's question.
For me, then, I didn't see Zachariah's questioning as, oh, he should have known better. But rather in line with the type of questioning that we get in the Old Testament. Right. So we have that type of questioning with Abraham. We have it with Gideon and Judges. He asks for science.
Yes. For like, same sign, like three different types of variations of the same sign. And God grants it each time. And like, wow, I would think that after the first one, I'm like, okay, that's it. No more. But we have also instances where the prophet Isaiah is asking, goes to the king ahaz, and Isaiah 7 and says, Request a sign. So God is asking the king to request a sign. And the king is like, oh, no, no, I'm not going to test God.
A sense of false piety. And Isaiah's like, well, you know what? You're getting a sign and this is it. And so the sense of asking for a sign within the Old Testament was not actually a negative. And so when we get to Zachariah, like, why then is this suddenly he should have known better when we have so many examples in the Old Testament of precisely this being done.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that point as well. Because as you know, in the Quran there is also this divine questioning. And I have episode actually on that. And like you said, Abraham Ibrahim, he also asks, why is this going to happen?
He also asked questions about resurrection. He's also uncertain about sacrificing his child in the Quran. So there is this kind of theme of asking. And as you know, Mary and Maryam in the Quran also asks, how is this possible when I have a child, when no man has touched me? So, so that's fascinating. So you're saying this is a theme throughout the Old Testament, but somehow when we get to Zechariah, that same kind of theme isn't applied. It's seen like, not as a positive thing, but seen as some. See unbelief.
[00:17:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's because since the angel makes it clear that there's something wrong with Zachariah's answer, that then hollers look and say, well, then it's either the way he phrased it or there's a lack of faith. And that's, you know, that's clearly, that's clearly problematic. Or the sense of he should have known better because he was well versed with scripture and should have, should have been aware that this is how God works.
I'm not really satisfied with all of that.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So then could you tell us then about the Quran? So one of the things interesting about your work is some scholars, either biblical scholars or chronic scholars, but you're. When I read your article, it seemed like you're using the Quran to make a biblical argument. So could you speak more about how the Quran represents Zechariah, Zakaria and then how it helps maybe understand the biblical Zechariah better?
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So when I started to look at how Zakaria is presented, we have similar description of, you know, pious man who is, you know, doesn't have a child and, and receives this angelic message of divine intervention that's going to allow for him to have a son.
And he questions it as well. But then. And he's made mute, but he's only been mute for three days and it's seen as a positive. Here's your sign. For three days you will be mute. And it's received. There's no sense from the angel that this is a punishment that, like Zachariah was wrong to, to ask the question to begin with. So already in the narrative we have a departure from what we have in the biblical Zechariah in terms of the angel's response. Even though there's these points of similarity with the mutinous. It's not for nine months, it's for three days.
But that there's something about the silence there and the fact that the questioning is not problematic that then makes me take a step back and see, okay, we have this question, we have this IOD and the muteness that is a Positive sign as opposed to the muteness, that's a negative sign. And in looking at that, it makes me go back to the biblical text and question the muteness in itself. What is it doing rather than just straight up punishment? Is there another function to this muteness that maybe I haven't seen, haven't paid attention to, not focused so much on, but that comes from looking at the chronic text and really seeing. This is an interesting point of departure. There's something here that I think is worth exploring.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. So you're saying that using the Quran as almost a hermeneutical tool, that the Quran in some ways preserves some of the biblical heritage or how the story was maybe historically understood, and then going back to this text to kind of uncover something that may be unsaid or misunderstood, Is that right?
[00:21:09] Speaker C: Yes. And some. Something like that, yes.
And also where, where you have points of contact that are similar, like, especially with the figures like Zechariah or Ayub and Job, what often can happen in just kind of a superficial read of by Christians or Catholics is, oh, look, this is the same.
And you know, there he is, he gets an annunciation. He's also made mute. There's a few minor differences, but, you know, this is something we can talk about as being similar.
And I want to take it a little bit further, like, okay, there's something similar, but there's also something that's very different.
And these differences point to our different theology. So it's not the same, but it doesn't mean that we can't grow and learn from each other.
And so in terms of that lens, seeing then this reception of Zachariah and the positive view of muteness, looking back and saying, okay, I've not been satisfied with the explanations for why questioning was wrong in the biblical account.
Is there something in the muteness that. That it reveals something new? And so part of my argument is silence as leading to greater revelation.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And when I was reading the chronic commentators also, they don't see Zacharias as a figure in any ill way. The questioning, as you kind of know, is seen as positive. And then he's given a sign, right? So it's not. He's almost given a favor from God, a sign. He asked for a sign and he gets it. And then this interesting thing about silence or muteness. And as you know, Mariam later is asked to be silent. And the word in Arabic is, is som. So she's asked to do like a som or a fast to kind of abstain. So som in Arabic, as you know, is like a positive thing, it's not like a negative thing. She's not told to be mute. So even the translation, I think it's interesting. What words is this kind of silence, abstaining, Is it muteness?
So I love this point you made in your article about this idea of silence of mercy. Could you speak about that? So you talked about idea muteness and how it's connected maybe to understandings of unbelief, but you're trying to maybe rethink that as a silence as part of a sign and then silence of mercy. So yeah, yeah.
[00:23:38] Speaker C: So in the context in which both Zechariah and Zachariah occur, there's the connection to God's mercy either as part of the context of the Surah, the emphasis in, you know, Surah Miriam, that need for mercy comes out repeatedly. And, and in the biblical account we have intervention with the coming of John the Baptist and then with Jesus. It's this mercy of God that is being emphasized in the portrayals and in the speeches. You have Mary's Magnificat that comes in this first chapter of Luke as well. And the end of chapter, the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke is this Benedictus, this proclamation from, from Zechariah that again speaks to God's, God's mercy and bringing light to the people. And the speech that we have with Zechariah when he's restored, pointing towards the mercy of God. So the silence kind of paves the way for this kind of climactic moment when his, his tongue is loosened and the first words that come out are this praise of God and faith in the mercy. And then talking about how this is going to be ushered in through his son John the Baptist, who's going to pave the way for the Messiah that's coming and Jesus. Right. So then that's where, being that you have the context of mercy within the Quran, when Zachariah appears and his, his silencing is in a way then connected with this merciful act of this is the sign so that you know that what's coming is true and reinforces then or affirms God's continued mercy towards his people. Right. And that also is present within the Lucan account.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: So you're saying the silence plays a function in the narrative, like yeah, yeah, it's kind of paving the way or setting up the actual speech. And I found that also in my reading of Surah and Maryam because Maryam is also asked to be silent and that Kind of paves the way for the baby Jesus in the Quran to kind of speak. So there is this kind of play on silence and speech and throughout the chapter and to hear that also and in the Old Testament and the Torah as well.
So. Yeah, could you. Yeah, please.
[00:26:15] Speaker C: I was just gonna then talk about how when we. Coming back then to the biblical Zechariah and his becoming mute, where it's again seen as a negative. But I think this is, this is. I think where what the conclusions I've drawn in doing this, an interpretive work, is that there's something new that's occurring in God's interactions with his people, where before requesting the sign was the norm. So in other words, Zachariah, requesting the sign wasn't problematic, but this is actually an educational moment, not just for Zachariah, but for all those like the audience. Right. Who's reading the text. They like, there's a change in the Gospel of Luke. There's a theme of not requesting a sign even though so many signs are given.
So the sign itself isn't a problem. God grants these signs, but it's the requesting of a sign that becomes problematic because there's an emphasis on believing without seeing.
And then God gives these signs and you have to be attuned to those signs and receive them when they come, but you don't ask for them. So what I was proposing in this article is that the angels actually he gives a sign that is requested, but then it also becomes a learning moment in how to respond to God and in being open to God's response to our prayers.
Right. This is, it might not be what we expect, but being open to it, rather than, than the sense of like requesting proof, like, we need to shift, we need to grow in our relationship so that we're. We're moving more towards this like another level of faith, so to speak.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: So you're saying kind of the biblical or even the chronic text is trying to teach a lesson that the believer should be more attuned to the signs of God and how it.
[00:28:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Or that if there's not a sign, it's okay that the authority comes from the messenger, not from the sign. So you have the angel that has appeared and you would think that that would be a sufficient sign that there's something going on here and not. Not asking for more than what's given.
So it might seem harsh because that the angel tells that cry like, okay, because you felt like you did something wrong here is like, how would he have known? Well, how does he knows well, the. This is how he's taught. This is a moment of learning.
How else is he going to learn that this. There's a new way of communicating with, how to really engaging in this, in this relationship that's new.
And from the beginning of the Gospel of Luke, we have that set out with Zachariah and it gets developed throughout the rest of the Gospel.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: Okay, fascinating.
[00:29:16] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: So to kind of go back on this question of like, silence and speech.
One of the things, as you know, in the Quran, this, the chapter of Mary, Maryam starts off with the speech of Zakaria. So he has this really impassioned plea. And I'm really fascinated with this idea of chronic vulnerability where he talks about that his bones have become brittle and his hair has become white.
And every time he goes to his Lord, God responds. And then he calls out in this kind of quiet way. And it's very kind of vulnerable in this particular position, talking about his fears and hopes. And he's also this kind of very private relationship with God. How does this prayer maybe compare or contrast with kind of biblical narratives, what we find, whether in the Gospels or in the Torah and the Old Testament, and then how does it kind of maybe speak to this idea of muteness or silence that comes later?
[00:30:17] Speaker C: So in terms of how it connects with the biblical account, we don't have so much of that interiority with Zechariah in the Gospel of Luke. It's not a sense of, oh, you know, he doesn't have that speech. What we do know about him is that he and his wife are both upright, blameless, they're devout Jews. All of that is very clearly stated. Leading into the interaction with the angel, we learn, you know, we know that they're barren. And then from the angel we hear like, okay, here's a resolution of this problem.
And the way that it's presented. The annunciation is like an annunciation pattern that is found in the Old Testament. So the appearance of the angel to the visionary, this sense of fear or concern, reassurance, the message given, and an explanation of who this child will be.
And sign. Right. This is. That's. That's just typical within several instances of birth announcements in the Old Testament. So this goes for Abraham.
We see it with the judge. Samson, like the angel, appears to his parents in a similar manner. And then we have some elements of this also present with Hannah in First Samuel, who is barren. And she. And so we see more of the pathos with her about her barrenness.
And she's going to. To pray and the, the priest, Eli, he's like, oh, you know, you're just babbling. Go be drunk somewhere else. He's like, I'm not battling, I'm praying.
And so he blesses her and, and ultimately she, you know, she dedicates her son to God from the womb. And so Samuel's given over, do you know, temple service and so forth. So we have that sense of the pathos that comes with barrenness that, you know, you talked about within the Quran present in some portions of the biblical text. It's present in other ways, but in terms of enunciation scenes, it's, I think, most clearly seen with Hannah. Even though Hannah doesn't. She's not an angel that appears to her, but there's still this connection with, you know, a blessing to her so that she can then conceive and have this child who then becomes this great prophet. They haven't had prophets, you know, in a while. And so then Samuel was like the first in a long time.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Oh, fascinating. So before we move to Job Ayub, I want to see if there was anything else you want to share about Zachariah Zakaria before we transition there.
[00:33:02] Speaker C: So the one other thing is that in going back and looking at the text and seeing more of this, seeing Zachariah's muteness as an educational moment which gives it again, it is. Has this punishment waiver, so to speak. But he.
But there's a growth that occurs through this. And part of what drives me to that too is one other research interest that I have is with the concept of suffering and how it's presented in the biblical text. And. And then also then that ties in with suffering and how it's presented in the Quranic text. But where suffering sometimes is educational because it's. The person is learning through the process.
So looking at Zachariah's suffering in terms of not being able to speak for such a long amount of time as being educational, I think for me, connection was more readily made because I had already had this sense of suffering as educational. There's. And there's a.
It's not only. It's not like that's what suffering is. There's a lot of other categories, but that's one category that I'd come across.
So looking back at that and then also looking at earlier receptions of Zachariah, because the, as I've been talking about the Benedictus, that's the coming from the Latin translation of Zachariah's prophecy at the end of Luke found its way into the liturgy of the hours that Catholics pray. And.
And it occurs, you know, every day. They're praying this Benedictus and like, so how do we get Zacharias prophecy now as a part of the liturgy, part of the worship? Right. And so talking about how the silence of Zachariah reorients not just in terms of how to approach communicating with God, in terms of, you know, requesting a sign, not requesting a sign, but what it all should orient towards is worship, proper worship of God. And so when we see that development, again because his tongue is loosened, the first thing he does is praise God.
And so then seeing that his prophecy then becomes part of the daily worship and the liturgy of the hours, then you're like, okay, this embodies that proper worship as well as pointing towards the history of God's interaction with humanity.
So educational, informing, reminding those who pray as Benedictus of that. But then fascinating that that proper worship is that praising of God that everything should be leading in that direction and found its way in that home around the 6th century is like the earliest where we see this practice really coming into play.
And also looking at the protovangelium of James, which was around the second century and in the Common era. And here he's portrayed very similarly to what we find in the Quran, actually.
So he's, you know, he's kind of taking care of Mary and he's portrayed very positively.
There's not a question of like, oh, he shouldn't have. He shouldn't have been questioning God or anything like that. And ultimately he's martyred in that infancy Gospel. He's martyred during the massacre of innocence by King Herod. So just seeing the early tradition of the church that had maybe more of a positive interpretation of Zechariah that got lost along the way. Not. It didn't become the main line of interpretation that I'd come across who was familiar with. So anyways, that was all that kind of brought me back then to like, okay, well, there's. There is a tradition within Christianity that has him portrayed positively. And also the fact that he's made it into liturgical practice.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: Right, that's interesting. So on this point about suffering, and that kind of connects with Job or Ayub. So he's seen in the Bible and Quran as someone who suffers. But there seems to be some lessons in the Quranic tradition, Islamic traditions, idea of Sabr Ayub or the patience of Ayub, and they are connected in certain chapters in the Quran, the chapter of prophets. You see, Zechariah and Job had mentioned in similar circumstances. So, yeah, maybe briefly you could speak about this connection because normally people wouldn't make that connection. I think they would see Zachariah with Mary and then maybe see Job in another light. So, yeah, can you speak a little bit there?
[00:37:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that there's the connection in different ways in the biblical text and the chronic text in the Quranic text. I think the point of connection definitely has to deal with God's mercy.
Right. We don't have as much in terms of narrative on Ayub as we have say with, you know, Zechariah, Zachary has more narrative, which is when comparing the figures, comparing, like, the narrative stories is the easiest part to do.
And so with Ayub, you have definitely this sense of the suffering, God's ultimate mercy in alleviating the suffering. How does Ayub respond to it?
But it's not.
It's not as extensive as in the biblical text, because in the Bible you have an entire book, 42 chapters on job, and the majority of it is his complaining.
But we have here then, in terms of the similarity with Zechariah in the Gospel of Luke, where there's a questioning, though Job is questioning God is like, what is going on here? I haven't done anything wrong yet. I'm suffering. So the sense of retributive theology that, you know, those who do wicked will be punished and those who do good will be rewarded, completely turned on its head in the book of Job. And Job is confident that he hasn't done anything that merits the level of suffering.
He's not claiming to be perfect, but he's like, I haven't. I've not done anything so egregious that it merits the loss of all my kids on my properties, my, like, physical ailments, like, I've lost everything.
This does not match up with, with my life.
And so what that does is again, the sense of having to relearn the relationship with God. Right. He said he's at the beginning of the book of Job, he's offering sacrifice on behalf of these kids in case they have sinned.
By the end of the Book of Job, God tells Job to offer sacrifice for his friends or the friends that he's been arguing with through the majority of the book. And so we have now, again, leading to this worship. But there is actually something that Job needs to intercede on. Like, there's. It's his prayer that he's offering that he's been divinely told. Like, okay, you know, if you want to be all right, with me, you need to go ask Job to pray for you. God tells the friends, because you've not spoken well of me. Job has.
So we have Job's just in case offerings at the beginning now have shifted to meaningful offerings because there is a need. And he's. It's in a way more effective.
It's not just because, oh, let me just be cautious or, you know, so his. His sense of. Of worship rose throughout his suffering. But in the midst of it, he's questioning and he's questioning. And so at the end when God says he has spoken well, and you're like, really? Because he was pretty angry most of the book. And when you, you know, the connection with the patience of Job really comes from the interpretation in the letter of James in the New Testament. His patience is like, gone after chapter two.
And there's 42 chapters. So that's a long time for him to, you know, chapter three, boom. He's like, I wish I'd never been born. Right?
So he doesn't. He's not cursing God, but in a way then cursing like the gift of life. Right. That he's been given, questioning why be born at all if this is what it comes to. And he's wrestling with the idea. And so I think that connection with Zechariah of questioning, but it's a questioning that isn't answered the way either one of them expected.
Right. Because when God finally speaks up, the divine speeches towards the end of the book of Job, he doesn't say, oh, this is why, or, you're right, you didn't do anything wrong. It's more like, so, you know, do you know about creation? Do you know how any of this works?
And.
And so people are left very unsatisfied because they want. They want the question that Job posed answered. And God is like, that's not the right question.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an interesting connection. I never, you know, made that connection before regarding how they asked the question and idea of suffering.
So can you tell us a little bit more about your current work and what you're writing and where is this taking you?
[00:42:29] Speaker C: Right.
[00:42:29] Speaker B: Where is Zakaria? Are you.
Where have they leading you in your research and scholarship as well as your interreligious, interfaith work?
[00:42:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to do more work with Job and Ayub. I. I co authored a chapter in a work on comparative religion with a scholar in Saudi Arabia, and we talked about Job and Ayub in regard to creation theology, temptation and so forth. I want to go back to the concept of suffering and unpack that further. As I did some work, but I haven't done. That was like towards the beginning of when I started to do comparative work, comparative scripture. So now that I've, I've had some more years doing that, I want to revisit it and rework it and hopefully get that, get that out there in terms of other projects that I have in mind or that I've been asked to do. So there are different study Bibles out there. So that the Catholic Study Bible has invited me to write an essay on the Bible and the Quran or the Catholic Study Bible. So that's still being worked out, but I've accepted the invitation. We just need to figure out all the details and so forth. But hopefully I'll get that in next year. And I think that's exciting because. Because then that broadens the audience of people who are maybe made aware of other ways of reading scripture that can inform their faith and learn about others.
So, you know, there's not so much this kind of fear reaction of the other, but a knowledge that allows for further engagement and appreciation for one's own faith tradition at the same time.
So those are the main ones that I know for sure are in the works.
But yeah, I think I want to revisit that sense of suffering within the biblical and Quranic figures. And so in that way bring together both of my research interests.
Maybe thinking even in terms of King David and how the suffering or mercy is understood. That's something else I didn't have in the back of my mind. But. And that's going to be a while.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: Great. So, yeah, thanks so much, Maria, for this discussion and for being on the show.
[00:45:02] Speaker C: Oh, thank you for, for inviting me. I really, I enjoy talking about all of this. Thanks.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: And that was my interview with Maria Bargi. So many things jumped out to me in that interview. First, the idea of silence. And as we discussed before, silence is seen as a positive thing in Surah Maryam and within the lives of Zakariya and Maryam, Zakariya is told to be silent and then the birth of John or Yahya will occur. Maryam, after she's given the good news of Isa and is told to go back to her people, she is also told to be silent and to do a som or a fast and abstain from talking to other people. Silence is in many ways opportunity for one to become closer to God and, and is also a way for someone to reflect and think about their own personal experiences. The second thing that emerged was the idea of suffering that in the Quran and Bible there is this correlation between suffering and patience and personal growth. Maryam is someone who actually suffers. The birth of her child Alisa or Jesus is not easy. She even cries to the point that she wished she had died and been forgotten. This is similar to other figures within the Quran in the Bible, such as Job or Ayub, who also suffers but then finds personal growth and redemption. The last thing that struck me was the connection between the different figures, whether that's Zechariah, Maryam and Ayyub. All of them share certain themes, whether that's calling out suffering or being a righteous figure or even Prophet of God. These connections are not immediately apparent and through the study of the Quran and Bible, we can see how these figures and the themes they represent interconnect and relate thank you once again for listening to the Islamic Married Podcast. Once again, subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. Encourage your friends, students and colleagues to subscribe and listen to the podcast as well. I'll be teaching a class next semester at my university on the Quran and Bible and I'll be asking my students to listen to select episodes. You can always text me, email me about your thoughts and your comments. Always love hearing from you and feel free to review this podcast. Let me know your thoughts and your opinions and you can visit my website and my newsletter to get a better sense of my research and publications and my forthcoming book on the Islamic Mary, thanks so much and take care.
