Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Breathings these be on to you or Salaam Marley and welcome who Islam on the edges. What casts are over the Medan podcasts with the Hollywood center for global Islamic studies at George Mason university. My name is Evelyn <inaudible> and I am your host. We are grateful to have with us. They there say that Mohammed Dean underneath from the national university of Singapore. Welcome Hailey.
Speaker 1 00:00:39 Thank you for having me today.
Speaker 0 00:00:40 You're most welcome. Uh, Dr. <inaudible> is an associate professor at the national university of Singapore. He's also a senior research fellow at Georgetown university. He is the author of several books on, is mostly on Islam in Southeast Asia. He, his latest book is on history of Islam on the history of Islam in Malaysia and previously he has published on a variety of issues. He's published a book on one of the most important Indonesia, Islamic thinkers of the 20th century. Hunka he also published the book on the Muslim cosmopolitanism and various other themes and topics, uh, and tens of academic articles on issues related to global Islam and Islam in Southeast Asia. This podcast is called Islam on the edges.
Speaker 0 00:01:43 It is a part of the global Islam consideration and podcast, where we are focusing on the parts of the world where Islam had existed for many centuries, but which are often neglected in the analysis on Islam and local Muslims. Islam on the edges could be understood as a methodological principle. And if applied as such, it could deal with new insights into understanding the global nature of Islam. While there has been a significant development in the approaches to the study of Islam, emphasizing its global and non centric nature. There are still significant remnants of the old approaches that seem to emphasize this mentality of the middle Eastern and near Eastern histories, languages and cultures, such approaches may be understandable, but their persistence in today's globalized present ought to be brought into question Islam on the edges is both polycentric and concentric in nature. It invites us to think of multiple important centers of Muslim culture and experience that are equally important and constitutive of what makes Islam a global presence and its polycentric nature Islam on the edges in parts and non centric, understanding of Muslim religion, no center region is more important to the understanding of global Islam than another.
Speaker 0 00:03:18 So based on this basic principles, we are launching into this new podcast and we are hoping to highlight many manifestations of Islam around the world that are often not seen outside the narrow circle of specialists who study these issues. So Dr. Hydra Dean, I would like us to talk today about Muslim cosmopolitanism. You wrote a book about it, but I don't want this simply to be a book discussion. I wanted to be at discussion of the concept and its manifestations, especially as it was manifested and Southeast Asia. Now your very name, your last name is your family name is Elgin aid. That doesn't sound Southeast Asian and Southeast Asia has been for a very long time. The place of very various culturalist realization interactions among local populations, the Chinese, the Indians, the Arabs, the Europeans. Can you tell us the story of these interactions by highlighting their own family history?
Speaker 1 00:04:28 Yes. Thank you, Dr. Airman for that, uh, introduction and, uh, a very, uh, leading an important question about Muslim cosmopolitanism in Southeast Asia. Uh, you're right to say that, uh, my surname doesn't actually reflect, uh, so-called, uh, local understanding or naming of, uh, people and communities here. Um, in truth, my family actually came from a place in the middle east called Hadhramaut, and we are known as, uh, the Hydra Meese. That is actually in the, uh, on the paternal side of my family. My mother intern, um, is an Indian and we heal from, uh, south India. And, um, the confluence of these two civilizations produced myself and five other siblings. And this is something not actually unique to my own family. Um, this whole, this whole cosmopolitan intermingling and interactions, uh, is, uh, something that you can find in many service Asian communities. The hydrogen is being one of them. There are the Javi product cans and other hybrid communities in the region. So when we talk about Muslim cosmopolitanism in Southeast Asia, uh, it is something that is not only, uh, unique to families such as mine, but it is something that is shared by so many communities here that have been around for thousands of years, mixing together, becoming Muslims and learning to know one another through their faith and to truly their cultures.
Speaker 0 00:06:16 I see. So when I said that your name doesn't sound very Southeast Asian, that was really a thick on what the people from outside the region would think. But if you are in the region, you very much know that this type of hybrid, uh, interactions and families have existed around for centuries. Right.
Speaker 1 00:06:37 Very much. And yeah, and because of that, um, this whole idea that we always have about people from the outside, not being able to identify themselves with people in the insight that is so telling of many of the scholarship that we see right now is not something that reflect the everyday realities of service Asia in service Asia, the communities do not divide themselves into boxes that the Europeans and other colonial powers did when they came to this part of the world. Rather, uh, people from the outside very quickly became indigenized and accepted as part and parcel of the already plural community that is here. And because of that, the whole idea of the insight and the outside, the insider and the outsider, uh, is not something that is, uh, very much a reality here. Rather we celebrate a lot of ambiguity in terms of identities and the whole idea of being Creole or hybrid or mix is something that is celebrated here, especially amongst Muslims.
Speaker 0 00:07:52 Yeah, it is interesting, as you know, I lived in Southeast Asia for a number of years. I was in Malaysia and Southeast Asia always struck me as on the one hand, a quintessential from tear with us in the central edge, especially for the Islamic culture and civilization. And at the same time as a very important center of Muslim culture and civilization, um, you know, Indonesia for those who know is the most populous Muslim country in the world, there are close to 300 million Muslims living in Southeast Asia, you know, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines, Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia. Um, but these areas, uh, especially for people from the west and especially from the United States where I am right now, uh, are often seen as having very little to do with Islam. What do you think contributed to that perspective where that whole region is not seen as part of the why they're culture and civilization?
Speaker 1 00:08:57 And, uh, I, I may say that this is actually a very recent development in view of, uh, the many works that have, uh, came out mostly from the us prior to that even, um, the Islamic scholars do not regard this part of the world as dags, uh, in fact, service Asia, especially in Sumatra and more, more notably, our chair was more known as the veranda of mocha, which means that before you actually go to Mecca, you can actually study in HFS. There are many scholars in the past that actually came to this part of the world to master many of the sciences before they actually take the trip to many parts of the middle east. And they existed what I call as Muslim global simulations, where people come in and out from service Asia to the Arab world, to south Asia, in fact, true north Africa and the rest or the Muslim world.
Speaker 1 00:09:57 And they see every part of the Muslim world as a center in itself. And this perspective has, has somehow been faced partly due to a lot of the scholarship that came from Europe that defines as the center and actually see the Muslim world from that angle of vision. So there is this whole, what has been called as the diffusion, his theory of Islam and Islamization that the pure Islam, the big tradition comes from the Arab world and a little traditions come from elsewhere in the world, including service Asia, which has always been seen as the furthest geographical region from the center of Islam. So we have, uh, an intellectual problem costs and perpetuate that largely by the forces of colonialism Orientalism. And I think, uh, in our times, American hegemonic, um, intellectual ism,
Speaker 0 00:11:04 I see. So in some ways we need to remap our intellect driven to try to understand this time differently. And I think this is precisely what Islam on the edges is about. This is precisely what we are trying to do by highlighting, uh, and problematizing many of these issues by saying that in order to have a true global perspective on Islam, we need to do a way with this notion of center and periphery. And the understanding that the truest land comes from the middle east and that Islam in other regions of the world is somehow a lesser Islam.
Speaker 1 00:11:43 And exactly. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And, and I, I just, um, as you, uh, saying, uh, that does now, uh, it, me, I actually have a malaria word called a healer and Hulu, and the whole notion of the ages actually refer to this concept of the lived. He lived means a place that is at the threshold of a given rum, which means that the ages are not actually in silica insignificant, rather the ages can tell us what is actually happening in the center, the ages practically illuminate whatever that is happening in the center. So I must say that this whole idea of Islam on the ages truly, truly reflects what service agents actually see themselves. Vis-a-vis the larger Muslim world.
Speaker 0 00:12:37 Yeah. Thank you so much for, for saying that then I think, um, I think obviously I'm on the edges, um, as I'm thinking about it is really deeply influenced by my own experience in Southeast Asia, because I quickly realized living there that, um, Islam there wasn't very feral in any way and that Muslims there are so well connected to other parts of the world, um, and are so open-minded, and this brings me really to our main topic, which is, um, Muslim cosmopolitanism. Um, can you tell us a little bit what prompted you to study cosmopolitan things I'm in? Why do you think this particular concept is of such importance for Muslims today?
Speaker 1 00:13:21 So when, when we study Islam in Southeast Asia, in fact Islam, uh, in the, in the entire Muslim world, we cannot divorce the texts from the context. And here, when we look at Islam, uh, all over the world, especially in Southeast Asia, the Qur'an, and of course the <inaudible> play a big role in the shaping of the sense and the sensibilities of the people, uh, in many parts of the Muslim world, especially in Southeast Asia. And I was particularly moved firstly, by the texts where in the court, um, it is stated in Sudan that, uh, a law has created humankind in different races and tribes and groups from male and female in all, for them to know each other with the era Fu and this whole idea of, uh, people from different parts of the world, people from different backgrounds coming together is something that is, uh, advocated.
Speaker 1 00:14:26 And in fact, encouraged in the court. That is the text. And then when I turned my eyes to the context, you see this happening basically, uh, in the everyday realities of Muslims in Southeast Asia, when we put these two things together, what I see is a kind of cosmopolitanism that was there now that not that I do not claim to be the first use this concept, Muslim cosmopolitanism, uh, the great historian of global Islam, Marshall Hawkson actually coined the term in his, uh, classic, the venture of Islam. He calls it Islamic cosmopolitanism that developed throughout the history of Islam, another scholar by the name of Bruce Lawrence, uh, restate the point in one of his essays, urging scholars, to look at this aspect of Islam. What I've done basically to my own research is to show that this whole idea of Muslim cosmopolitanism is not something that we can find in the everyday realities of Muslims anywhere in the world, especially in Southeast Asia, but that we can link it back to the Qur'an and that we can link it back to the practices that are made alive by Muslims, everywhere in the world, especially in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1 00:15:51 And for this reason, this is why I defined Muslim cosmopolitanism a little bit more different than the scholars of the past. I see it as a style of thought, a habit of seeing the world or a way of living that is rooted in the central tenant of Islam, which is that everyone is part of a common humanity accountable to God, and that we are morally responsible to one another. So there is this practical dimension to it. It is not only an ideal, uh, but it is something that has to be done into practical action to embrace Muslim cosmopolitanism is to exhale a high degree of receptiveness to universal values. That means not only the values of Islam per se, but the values of Islam as it is reflected in the values of humankind, uh, that are also embedded within one's own customs and traditions. So what I emphasize in my own conceptualization of this term, vis-a-vis the realities on the ground is that we cannot divorce. What is universal from what is particular that customs and traditions play a big role in shaping how Muslims, um, get along with one another and with other communities as well, because we have, uh, in Islamic law, this whole notion of <inaudible> customs is also a source of Hookem hence with this Muslims in the region, actually see it as a legal injunction to get along with communities around them, to build a good societies with them and, and, uh, to live together peacefully.
Speaker 0 00:17:32 Yeah. Thank you so much for elaborating on this and your definition of Muslim cosmopolitanism. So I think not our listeners can now have a really good grasp on what you mean by, at the end. You sort of anticipated my next question by, uh, your awards and your previous sensor, which is, um, it is on the one hand, easier to understand Muslim cosmopolitanism as a Muslim thing, but how do non Muslims figure in Muslim cosmopolitanism and how is that similar to, or different from how they've been treated historically, especially under the various pickoff jurisprudential regimes that existed in Muslim
Speaker 1 00:18:11 History. So in my latest book, Islam in Malaysia and twine history, I make the Fosterville argument that we cannot study the development of Islam in Malaysia. And that means in Southeast Asia as a whole, and in fact, in global Islam, without putting into consideration the agency of non-Muslims, whether we recognize it or not, or whether we want to acknowledge it in our writings. And in our thinking about this issue, non-Muslims have figured strongly in the making of Islam from the time of, until the very day. And we know the great figure of <inaudible> in the life of rustle laws are low alums alum. And in Southeast Asia, the spread of Islam in the region was made possible basically through the work of traders. Many of them are non-Muslims who traveled with Muslims into the region, the hydro homies, the Chinese, the Indians from many part of the Muslim world came the Persians together with non-Muslims, uh, shapes.
Speaker 1 00:19:22 And, and John's in fact, one of the notable figure in the history of Southeast Asia and, uh, uh, at Myrle Ching ho or Ching, her was a Chinese Admiral in the Chinese Navy. He was practically sent by the emperor, the Chinese emperor, who was non-Muslim to countries part of the world for diplomatic purposes. But with the knowledge that Jenga was a Muslim and part of her mission was actually to spread Islam in the region. So how's the one who seems fit into this whole project of Muslim cosmopolitanism. They were the linchpin of the development of this Muslim cosmopolitanism. They met Islam in this region cosmopolitan. And what is unique is that they took up very, very important places in the end, in the regimes that were set up by the sultans and also by, uh, post-colonial states as well in the building of a cosmopolitan Muslim societies.
Speaker 0 00:20:28 Yeah. And I would like to sort of build on that by saying that when I was in Southeast Asia, I lived in Malaysia and visited Indonesia and Singapore, Thailand, many times I was always struck by the fact that sacred is so important across religions, and that there is a huge respect for the sacred, uh, by followers of one religion or the sacred of another religion. Uh, and I haven't seen really that in many other parts of the world, obviously Europe, uh, what the west has been thoroughly secularized. And so the sacred had been reduced to the private sphere in Southeast Asia, whether you were in a Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim or environment, you'll find the sacred central to the existence and people share and partake in that regardless of their religious affiliation. Can you elaborate on this and how does it relate to Muslim cosmopolitanism?
Speaker 1 00:21:32 Yeah. When Islam came to this part of the world, one of those things that happened was a transformation of the linguistic worlds of, uh, the communities here. Islam came with a new language that was Arabic and transformed the Malaya language into one that was very aerobatic. But what is interesting about this Arabic visitation of the Malaya language was that the Arab and the knowledges or Arabic words did not replace many of the religious leader, inclined words in the Malaya language. One of those words that was not replaced even with Islamization was the word Agama or some say who gamma, yes, the word connotes, not only religion, but a sense of sacredness and the effect that it was not replays. Only. It goes to show that generations of generations of Islam, Mises that brought Islam to this part of the world did not seek to undo what was understood by the local community as what is sacred and what is to be, um, treated in higher Everence.
Speaker 1 00:22:54 I can cite many of the examples. For example, if you go to Malaysia today or Indonesia, and when it's time to pray, they don't use the word solar. They use the word somebo young, which is actually of Hindu origin, which means to pray to debt, which, um, secret and the same is it with fasting. Instead of using Psalm, we use Plaza, which is from San sunscreen until today. A lot is still referred to, with the word thumb to which means God, and what <inaudible> is still used by Christians, by Buddhists, by Hindus, as a way of Muslims to show a showing to the rest of these communities, that we still respect your religion as your way of life. But then we a different understanding of what God means to us. So this Cosmo Muslim cosmopolitanism that we are talking about it is, it is something that people talk about every day. Of course, uh, people don't realize this, but that at the end of the day, everybody share the same linguistic or the same nomenclature to describe what is secret. Hence they see everything that is sacred in the same manner.
Speaker 0 00:24:12 I think that that is very powerful. And I had witnessed on many occasions, uh, where people was a show utmost reverence to the sacred that people of other religions, uh, revered. And that is something that I was struck with, especially coming from Europe, from the Balkans, from Southeastern Europe, where there is often very strong, um, mistrust or people of other religions. And, uh, oftentimes there is a sort of a very strong division. Uh, I found the fluidity that exists in Southeast Asia, quite refreshing and eye eyeopening at the same time. Um, well, let me ask you this, now that we talked about the sacred, I think it's very natural that we would move to another sacred area and that is marketplace. Um, there's perhaps no better place to examine and observe Muslim cosmopolitanism, then a marketplace. Tell us more about the role of the marketplace in Southeast Asia, Muslim cosmopolitanism and especially the role of women.
Speaker 1 00:25:18 Yeah. Thank you. So before the coming of Islam, so obviously Asia was already a hub of comments that was linked to many parts of the world, Europeans Arabs, Indians, Persians, Chinese. I've traveled to this region before Islam came and Islam basically came, uh, as a trading religion to this part of the world. And because of these markets, uh, in Southeast Asia were hubs of ideas, and this is the place where people play and interact with one another are mean you have lived in Southeast Asia, and I'm sure you can tell the difference between markets in Southeast Asia with markets in the Balcones. People talk a lot. So when you talk about communication, you're really talking, uh, talking about people interacting heavily with one another. They may just know you and they will ask you, you know, where are you from? Uh, so what are you bringing here, uh, data as a bit about your culture, and this is part and parcel of the culture in the, in the region.
Speaker 1 00:26:28 And because of this Islam grew from, uh, these conduits of interactions. And until today, the marketplace, if you have been to <inaudible> in Jakarta, if you have been to the gala in Singapore, if you have been to the city co-teacher market in Atlanta and so forth and so forth, you will see these, um, uh, highly intensive interactions going on. I have people coming from the outside, uh, feeling that many of these markets are very, very un-Islamic. And yeah, that leads me to the second point. One of those things that is interesting about marketing's of is Asia, uh, is the predominance of women. You don't see men around as much as you see local women trade buying. And this hats back to the pre Islam spirit, because in Southeast Asia, the Metri local custom, uh, is widely held and women, uh, pretty much, uh, dominant and active in the society. They're very much involved in field. And because of this, until even when it's not that culture was not removed, it became part and parcel of the Islamic culture that was still there. And these women were basically purveyors of the, of the new religion that come to this part of the world. So we're talking about really people talking, communicating, sharing, and in fact, intermarriages between women and foreign traders, especially from the Muslim world happened by virtue of these communications in the marketplace. And that led actually partly through the spread of Islam.
Speaker 0 00:28:16 Yeah, it is so interesting. Um, obviously I do miss going to pass out of Milan the evening markets, Malaysia or Indonesia, and I always was struck how much importance people attached to going to these places. It wasn't just, I'm going to go there and buy some food and fruit and vegetables. It was almost as a ritual that people were going to these places, even if they really didn't know that they needed something, it was a weekly occurrence where you had to show up and interact with people and talk to them and, and just partake in that whole activity.
Speaker 1 00:28:58 Yes. And, uh, it actually is very much related to the saying in Molay canal, which means no, someone, you cannot love that person enough. And the way to know that person to buy and sell. So buying and selling is a big thing within the Islamic culture here, the Muslim cosmopolitan culture here, and the buying and selling actually involves words. And this is why Asia, we are always reminded and being reminded that we need to communicate a lot, but we need to be very, very, very careful with what we say, because we say in Malaya, Kuranda Mueller, but then be NASA, which means because of your mouth or your lips or your words, basically, uh, you can actually enter into destruction. And if you turn that thing around precisely because of communication, especially by the women, Islam grow and could grow in a way that was accommodating to other communities that was, uh, that were here. I just would like to add one more point about the women. Uh, but because women had such high standing in south Asian community, it was very normal women to marry and remarry and remarried. Many, many times one clonal scholar in the 19th century found that women will marry more than three to four times in Asian communities, especially the Islamic communities. And this was something that was, uh, in fact celebrated because it led to the development of a very, very multi-racial society. It wasn't
Speaker 0 00:30:57 Being monetized as it would be in many societies,
Speaker 1 00:31:01 Actually being married and remarried was something that was encouraged because women accumulated capital from it. And not only that, they expand the gene pool to include different communities. These people would define the landscape as Asia and precisely because of this, if you go to <inaudible>, for example, you'll see people looking like Arabs and be like European, some look, Persians, others look Chinese, and the rest would look very surface Asian or Malaysia. This happened because of, uh, this, the celebration of, um, going in and out of marriages. So the Europeans were, were, were basically confused when they saw, uh, this tradition that was there. Uh, but they didn't understand that it was not because, uh, women in this region were, um, addicted to married marriage and remarrying, but that it was part and parcel of expanding, um, the culture that was there and to make societies even more cosmopolitan than it was before
Speaker 0 00:32:08 Is quite remarkable. And I, you earlier on, you mentioned market cotija in, in Columbia county, which is the Northeast province or state in Malaysia. Can you tell us more about that market and the role of women there?
Speaker 1 00:32:23 Yeah, so that market is very, very interesting because you have a few communities that have been there for a long, long time. Clinton is at the peak of Southern violin. So you have, uh, thighs, uh, they're also based in Clanton as well. And this market, as I was mentioning just now, it is practically dominated by women. It's run by women. And, uh, it is basically a women based economy. And the authorities there, we always know Clinton is a very conservative Muslim state. They do not touch the marketplace. So when I was there doing a bit of fieldwork, I was asking the people that, you know, like, um, isn't this a stigmatizing point in your society that is very, very so-called, uh, Islamic. They were telling me, this is what Islam is. Uh, the women are running things well enough. Uh, they are dominant. They know what day is good for them. And we just, um, leave them to do their job. So I was asking, where are the men? They say, well, they are at home or in the coffee shop or at work. They don't get involved in all of these things because nobody's going to allow them to come in.
Speaker 0 00:33:39 So women, women are dominating that area, women are dominating trade, and I've heard stories of women becoming so rich that they would lay there on trade in gold. And I think gold three at the became among women in CalAmp Muslim women. And <inaudible> a big thing, right.
Speaker 1 00:33:57 Very much. And the reason why they were able to do that. And until now, they are still able to do that is because they ma mastered a few languages. So some of these women could speak, uh, Thai language, others, a little bit of, uh, uh, Chinese dialect. And of course the Cantonese language in history, many of the Cantonese could actually, uh, speak a little bit of market Arabic. So because of the power of languages that they had this marketplace are really, you know, uh, they, they appear to us today as, uh, a place where you can actually learn languages in that during the height of the moleskin pseudonym, the Portuguese who traveled into the Sultanate found that there were more than 80 languages spoken in the marketplace. I mean, these are what the spies, you know, they want to come in and colonized and they was shocked by what they saw. I mean, you're looking at so many communities there and people trading and selling mostly women, uh, they are able to speak so many of these languages, this tradition somehow, uh, became disrupted due to colonialism. And today, many of the women they know better English than the men.
Speaker 0 00:35:12 I see. That's fascinating. Uh, I'm sure we could expand on this topic, but I wanted also to move our conversation, uh, to another important side of Muslim cosmopolitanism. I think any visitor to Southeast Asia must be struck by its sacred geography. What can you tell us about the mosque and its function within the cosmopolitan space and as a cosmopolitan space?
Speaker 1 00:35:40 Well, to begin with, uh, we need to look at the externals of the MOS most in service Asia, although some took on what is known later on as the Arab ceremony architecture or the Saturday Turkish architecture, most of the most in-service Asia actually manifests the cultural, uh, metrics of service Asia, which is that the most, some of which actually looked like Hindu temples. And you can still find it in many parts of Indonesia, the rest of the MOS in the region, rectally look like, um, the components and this was in history. And more recently, even in Clanton, the existed, what they call as Chinese inspired most. So you see temple looking, uh, architectures, uh, that are actually most in Soviets in Southeast Asia. So when we talk about some of those
Speaker 0 00:36:39 Kind of pagoda style mosques, if you will,
Speaker 1 00:36:43 Oh, yes, yes. So, so many of them now we have a big one. Uh, I think it was called, it's called the beaching Moss, uh, in Clinton, in Jakarta. It's also called the beaching mosque and all of them don't reflect, uh, our stereotypical idea of what a mosque should look like, which is that you want to see a dome. You want to see this, um, a building where it wasn't used to stand. Um, yeah, so all of these things don't exist. And from the externals, this most actually reflect the cosmopolitan culture that is already there. Now, when you enter into many of these MAs, what is interesting about Southeast Asian most in history, and until today is a celebration of the existence, the existence of women. And this is something that I explored in my books where when the Arabs and the Indians and people from different parts of the world were still debating about whether women should go through the most severe Asians and encourage women to attend, uh, most prayer sessions.
Speaker 1 00:37:55 And you will not talking about, uh, the daily breaths. We're talking about Friday breeze. So the guy, your community in our chair, for example, they have a special space for women to attend Friday periods. And there is this whole idea that, you know, we, we must not divide, uh, between men and women in terms of their ability to come for some of these secret events and the space becomes the space for everyone. The other thing that you can see in many of the most things of his Asia is that they share a close proximity with other religious. So if you go to Surat, for example, uh, most would, uh, share the same cup as the church. And this was not seen, and it's still not seen as something that is bad. Uh, something that is not acceptable to Islam, because the whole notion of sacred geography for Muslims here is not bounded by the whole idea that this is Muslim land, that is non Muslim land, rather, as I was saying just now, because the whole notion of Agama is very white. Whatever is sacred, remain sacred for everybody. We can share the space and we can make use of the space without necessarily infringing some of the demands of our faith in Malaysia, Malaysia. They now celebrate Chinese new year in the month, and this is not seen as an issue.
Speaker 0 00:39:27 I see. So are you saying then that those classical jurisprudential notions of division of territory between that all Islam and that'll have, or the abode of Islam and the abode of the war did not really apply to Southeast Asia and Muslims?
Speaker 1 00:39:43 Well, hula in Southeast Asia, especially in the earlier periods, when Islam came to this part of the world did actually adopt the whole notion of Islam and that will help. But very soon by the 16th century, when Islam in the region really became predominant. And when the region was seen as a hub of Islamic or Muslim commerce, that basically changed their minds, and they came up with this whole idea of Darryl Amman or Daru Salaam. And that's why if you go to many parts of Asia, especially in Malaysia, you will see states with a secondary name, something, something that will Amman something, something that will sell, um, and, uh, the whole peaceful, um, or the, the, the, the notion of peace is underlined more than the notion of war and the whole idea that we are supposed to divide ourselves between Muslims. And non-Muslims no by saying this, um, I'm not saying that they do not have, uh, an idea of difference. They did, they do, they did. And they still do until today. They still might difference between what it means to be a Muslim and what it means to be a non-Muslim, but in issues that are not involving, uh, what they see is geological methods and methods, but then ING to, um, uh, obligatorily rituals, the Lama and his part of the world are generally generally open to the existence of non-Muslims. And even some of these non-Muslim practices that are congruent with Islam.
Speaker 0 00:41:28 I see. That's quite fascinating. Uh, now, uh, you mentioned the dilemma and Alema are part of the intellectual elites of the society. I wanted to ask you, what is the role of Muslim public intellectuals in your vision of Muslim cosmopolitanism? And can you tell us more about as you might've be as, as concept of Islam?
Speaker 1 00:41:52 Yes. So, um, we've becoming a modernity, a lot of these Muslim intellectuals who are not necessarily trained, uh, in the traditional institutions, um, of Islamic learning have been trying to put out ideas that promote the whole notion of Muslim cosmopolitanism. One of those percents is actually as you Mardi, Azra a scholar and in a public intellectual base in Jakarta, his idea of Islam, Nusantara caused a lot of debates around service Asia, his detractors state, that Islam Nusantara is another ideological attempt to create a new Islam on the ages of the Muslim world that will somehow be so much different from other parts of the world. In reality, what as you, uh, as you Mardi, as, uh, as I was trying to say, is that you can find some aspects of Islam in this part of the world that are pretty particular and unique without necessarily being an Islamic.
Speaker 1 00:43:03 And he's actually right about this. Um, when we look at how Islam is manifested in many parts of the world, you see the force of culture and customs playing, uh, in the ways in which Islam is, uh, lift and express in those parts of the world. In Southeast Asia, as I was saying, just now, women are held in very, very high regard, and this may be seen by the hula Irma, the scholars, the people from other parts of the world to be unacceptable, but for people in this part of the world, it is not something that is seen as infringing. The main tenants of Islam that is largely based on the Mahasi cherry on that. If you are protecting the life of someone, if you are protecting the lineage, the property and so forth, um, that Islam is an equally very Islam. Now, my critique of the whole notion of Islam Nusantara is that the notion of Nusantara itself can be very, very problematic. Um,
Speaker 0 00:44:09 What is the meaning of,
Speaker 1 00:44:11 Yes. So no Sentara, uh, is actually, uh, a Sanskrit word to denote an area that can be categorized today as the Malay world. And here we are talking about islands of is Asia, which is Singapore, Malaysia, Southeast Asia, um, south Southern Thailand, and a little bit of, uh, Southern Philippines. Um, the, the, the, the term actually denotes not only a region, but also people who belong to a certain linguistic group, which is malice. The problem is, is that the malaise, as we know now have expanded their reach without, uh, uh, beyond that limits that was seen as some Sentara, hence it becomes a very constructed to be used because when we look at Islam in Southeast Asia, because communities were traveling, uh, throughout the region. And until today, if you go to many parts of, um, Cambodia, you will see, we will still find the champ community who are still Malays speaking, and they've identified themselves as part and parcel of what is known as the alumni. You are the malleable, and we need to somehow reimagine how we look at, um, the geography here and there wasn't a Santera may not accurately capture this way.
Speaker 0 00:45:41 So, um, let us move them to the next question. Um, and I think you're right about this as well in your book. I is that Muslim women bodies are almost escapable a contested issue. How does this work in Southeast Asia, uh, anybody who had been to Southeast Asia, especially the Muslim Southeast Asia, you know, in Malaysia and Indonesia, uh, we'll find that, um, almost probably a majority of women, there were hate DOB or some sort of a head covering, and that wasn't the case even as recently as three or four decades ago. So what contributed to this prevalence of hijab and how is this to be understood in the context of cosmopolitanism?
Speaker 1 00:46:25 Hmm, well, the whole notion of hijab is not something that was totally missing, uh, in the minds of service Asian Muslims, before he jumped that we know today was introduced in service, Asia, Muslim women wore what they call S Linden is a piece of cloth that they put over their heads whenever they are out of their houses. And this was, I would say, a pre he job, he jabbed face. Right. Um, and it was there. The notion of modesty, uh, was that one should be, uh, women should be covering their heads. Uh, and that this covering should also include the covering of the opossums by the 1970s, with the coming of Islamic revivalism, especially after the Islamic revolution in Iran, the whole notion of his job began to change these Asian Muslims, especially the women folk were introduced to this whole idea of he job as closing ones, um, uh, body, other than the face and the hands.
Speaker 1 00:47:35 And this quickly caught on amongst the women for the women full I've been asked when I give a lecture in <inaudible>, uh, how is it? Why, why is it that women picked up this whole thing very, very quickly? The reason is because many women in the region saw it as a con continuously, rather than a rupture of the past. When the new kind of Egypt was introduced, many women could just look at it as nothing different from what they have done before. The only difference is that the covering comes with other forms of modest fashion, which when it had grew in terms of influence became as stylish, in fact, more stylish than the fashions that came before that. So the prevalence is linked to many things he job was now is seen as part and parcel of the popular culture, popular modes of dressing amongst women.
Speaker 1 00:48:37 And that the hijab is also seen from the realist angle as a way to ensure that their modesty is protected and upheld. And because of this women in the region and men see it as part and parcel of the Muslim cosmopolitan landscape. In fact, even non-Muslims began to see that this is a new form of culture, like the cultures that came before it, that ought to be seen as a transformation, not something negative, but something that makes service Asian Islam more palpable. And because of this in Singapore, we do not have a problem having a hijabi as our presence. And in Malaysia, just for two and a half years, we had a deputy prime minister who is a hijabi when Aziza, and of course, many politicians in Indonesia, uh, in many parts of the service Asia, uh, wear the hijab and they are seen as good enough, in fact, better than many of the people who are running the countries and running many of the services within the nations.
Speaker 0 00:49:51 Let's see. Um, I think this whole notion of cosmopolitanism also is, um, very much in modern times linked to the issue of the secular state and, you know, work, you bring up the secular state and its role in constricting cosmopolitanism. I think in a way this is a useful critique of a secular state. Can you explain this, explain this in the context of Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1 00:50:17 Yeah. So with the coming of the post-colonial state countries, such as Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Southern Philippines, Thailand, all parts of south Asia are trying to define what Islam actually means and the place of the religion India countries. And in trying to define Islam in trying to domesticate Islam, what they have done is basically to this allow certain aspects of Islam that was already there to be expressed and live better. People here take note that before the coming of the secular state, the post-colonial state, and of course the colonial state as well, contributing to the making of the post-colonial state people travel seamlessly across the regions, kinship pies were there, and people see themselves not only as part of the place that they are born, but as part and parcel of the region, what a list data has done is basically to define Islam prior, primarily from the, the angle of the nation, hence constricting the whole idea of the seamlessness of the religion.
Speaker 1 00:51:33 That's one second also imposing certain ideas about Islam does really ruling out other ideas. And these ideas must be in line with the circular. I settle a notion of what Islam is supposed to be. And thirdly, what a secular state has done is basically to ensure that certain groups in society that are expressing different versions of Islam that the state see as not in line with the agendas of the state to be sight line, in fact, um, suppressed in their own communities. So this is where my critique of the civil state is not to say that the simplest states that we have today cannot be tolerant to what Muslim cosmopolitanism, as an idea, and an ideal, rather, the ship that see in Southeast Asia, uh, from the 1960s onwards have largely been one that cannot accept this whole inclusive idea of what you slum is supposed to be. And this is something that we need to try and explain through the force of scholarship in order for the people who are running these states, to understand that Islam in the region has always been open and inclusive and very regional in its outlook without having to sacrifice, uh, the loyalties that we have in our local contexts.
Speaker 0 00:53:10 I see, uh, in your work, you call both Indonesia and Malaysia secular states, but you have a very interesting label for these two. You call them Malaysia, the parts is unsafe, killer state and Indonesia, the pragmatic state. Can you explain that a bit?
Speaker 1 00:53:28 Yeah. So, uh, for Indonesia, we need to, uh, understand that Indonesia is a member of a country it's huge. And, uh, even though during the height of Suharto's regime, there were a lot of repression and a strong sense of authoritarianism in the country. Uh, so how could we not control all of the Muslims Indonesia, hence why he did, was to adopt, uh, an ever-changing and pragmatic ideology, circular ideology in managing Islam, uh, by the 1980s, when Suharto saw that Islamic revivalism was getting very, very strong. He actually co-opted any of the intellectuals, uh, in society. And in fact, even the movements that are out there such as Muhammad idea and <inaudible> to be part and parcel of his state organs. And while that gave a lot of legitimacy, uh, to his power in the end, it actually caused his downfall because Muslim forces now have access to governmental funds and they could also bring about a change in regime that happened after that.
Speaker 1 00:54:45 So pragmatism was the ways in which you have to manage, uh, his regime and his policies to what Islam as formulation, right after the end of British colonial rule, the leaders of Malaysia saw it necessary to define the nation from the angle of Malays. And Molina's that at the end of the day, the whole notion of <inaudible> or Malaysia supremacy, supremacy ought to be upheld. And it becomes partisan when it comes to dealing with Islam, which is then they try to use Islam and here Islamic revivalism in the 1980s, actually give them more engine, uh, to justify this. They use Islam as a way to prop up Mali dominance in that country. And what took place. Basically it was a nationalization of Islam couch in the image of the Malays and impose on to society, the cosmopolitan cultures that were there, the Muslim cosmopolitan cultures that were there on the ground became affected by these policies. And because of this, in some instances in Malaysian history, you see a lot of very radical and extreme groups calling for, uh, the Maliyah ization of Islam in the country.
Speaker 0 00:56:17 Let's see. Um, I don't think this was definitely a fascinating conversation. Um, we're bringing it to an end. I would just like to ask one final question and that is what can the rest of the world, and in particular, the rest of the Muslim world learn from Southeast Asia in terms of cosmopolitanism.
Speaker 1 00:56:38 Yeah. I think the rest of the Muslim world could learn from Asia, the whole idea of living together with all communities, be it religious, cultural, and even secular communities. What service Asia offer to the rest of the world is this whole idea that we Muslims should look at other people as equal in the eyes of men. And that all creation of God is to be respected, protected, and also given their due place in society. So Islam in service Asia provides this example, this example, I'm not denying that there were violent episodes that happened throughout Southeast Asia, within Muslims, and non-Muslims the Muslims themselves. But by and large, when you shift from looking at all of these events, to looking at the everyday life of Muslims in Southeast Asia, this is a highly tolerant society that accepts anybody and everybody to be part and parcel of the landscape that we are in, in as long as we show respect. And we embrace the hybrid and cosmopolitan culture that defines Islam in the region.
Speaker 0 00:57:58 Well, thank you so much for this wonderful and invigorating conversation. And I hope that we will revisit some of these themes in future as well. This was your most welcome. This was Muslim cosmopolitanism podcast with Dr. <inaudible> from the national university of Singapore, um, Islam on the edges channel of the Medan podcast. We hope that you will join us in the next episodes as well. Thank you.
