Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome everyone. My name is am I am editor and chief of Madam and Madam Podcast. It's now Aleman Center for Global Systemic Studies at George Mason University that you visit our websites. Uh, you will see that there's a name change and you can read a little bit more about that and any generous endowment that the center has received. We are delighted to have also a new member of George Mason Faculty and Center's faculty today with us, Uh, Dr. Amina Alde, who has joined George Mason over the summer to direct a new, uh, project, generously supported by the Deuce Foundation. So this episode of Madam Podcast will introduce to our listeners who may not be familiar with Dr. Ams academic work, both herself and also the Black American Muslim International Project. We call this the BMI Project, B A M I. So, Dr. Amina, uh, welcome to this episode of Madam Podcast.
Speaker 2 00:01:10 Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here on Maddon and Ed George Mason and a Layman Center and with the Black American Muslim Internationalism Project. It's an exciting project.
Speaker 1 00:01:27 Wonderful. Thank you. And we'll hear more about the project from you. Uh, you will be the director of the project. You'll be the pi, uh, and, um, and, and we are, uh, we're super excited about that. But, uh, I wanted to, to introduce Dr. Alde briefly. Uh, Dr. Amerz for many years at, at DePaul University. She is a profess er of studies in the Department of Religious Studies at DePaul. In 2006, she founded the USS First undergraduate back of programs in Islamic World Studies. We'll talk a little bit about that. She's a former editor in chief of the Journal of Islamic Law and Culture. And she has many publications from African American Islam to Questions of Faith to, uh, transnational Muslims in America and many others. In addition to her scholarship, Dr. Amina is also very active in the nonprofit world, serving as board member of, uh, inner City Muslim Action Network, Iman, Muslim, uh, Arc, Muslim Anti-Racism Collaborative, uh, and several other nonprofits.
Speaker 1 00:02:34 So, uh, she's a scholar activist, perhaps we can, we can say, and she has been a mentor to many scholars, uh, and a colleague to, to many in the field. Dr. Amina, thank you so much for joining us again. My first question will be to ask you to talk a little bit about your life story. How did you end up, you know, studying, you know, religion and religious studies and, you know, what were some of, of the, the initial questions that led you to, to focus on study of religion, study of Islam in America and, and broadly transnational networks, uh, among several other initiatives. And then we will talk a little bit about your years in Chicago and the several initiatives you built in the West.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 Wow, that's a lot. <laugh>. Well, I was leaving medicine as my first profession, and Dr. Isel Faruki was teaching Islamic studies at Temple University in Philadelphia, along with side saying us. And both of them kind of pushed me, I won't say nicely recruited as pushed me into Islamic studies. Cause they were looking for African Americans who had, you know, successfully completed graduate work, worked beyond the, um, bachelor's degree to do Islamic studies. They mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, didn't feel that there were enough Americans who were Muslim and were interested in Islamic studies. So I let them bamboos on me into Islamic studies. And I was amaz because I had done very, I think I might have had a history course long, long time ago, <laugh>, because I graduated undergrad as a physics or math major and went on to pathology and pharmacy and medicine as a pa.
Speaker 2 00:04:46 So I really didn't know a lot about the field of religion nor Islamic studies beyond what a believer would engage. And so I tippy toed onto Islamic studies. And the most fascinating thing was I was the only female in my class and the only American. And the men weren't quite sure what to do with me. And of course I had a young daughter who I drugged a class with me and they're saying, Oh, I'm gonna really, I don't think we do this. And I said, Hey, every day is a new day. I don't do this either.
Speaker 1 00:05:34 And, uh, your, your graduate school year is, uh, is this late eighties, early nineties, Dr. Am Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:40 Well, middle eighties
Speaker 1 00:05:42 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2 00:05:44 And dragging a kid, you know, all around the world to do this, that and the other. We at in Temple's program had to learn, uh, what was it, three languages beyond the one you spoke. And of course for us in Islamic studies it was Arabic was foundational. But then I chose German and French and, you know, going to Germany, working, working <laugh> when German, which was hilarious, France wasn't so bad. You know, Germany is something different. The Arabic I did in the Sudan, I think the most difficult part was that Islamic studies doesn't have methodology, I mean, in the western sense of methodology. So you have to figure out a way in. So I found myself, in addition to my programmatic studies, tipping over to philosophy, tipping over to anthropology to try to figure out what I could combine that was, uh, true to what I was studying.
Speaker 2 00:06:58 But a fascinating study. But for me, all the way through was a one-sided study because we didn't look at Islam in the world. And I am a fanatic about the Ottoman Empire. So I'm saying, well, we're at Ottomans. There were lots of things missing. Even South Asian studies were missing, Far eastern studies of Islam were missing. So it was like, you put a little check in the back of your head, If I am successful in finishing this, I'm going to go and study some more and do those things, which provided the background. When I started teaching at DePaul in Chicago, I was afforded both the support and the opportunity to make this Islamic World Studies program. But I truly wanted to make it Islamic World studies, not just one cultures studies. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:07:56 <affirmative> that, that gives you so much to, to so much additional, So many additional questions, uh, to ask. One of which is to ask you to reflect a little bit more about, um, like the nature of graduate programs in religion. I assume that some of your, uh, cohorts members are also like in a prominent names in in the field. What has changed in, in your perspective, Dr. Amina, since your time, uh, as a, as a graduate student in religion and in STEM studies and today there's a related question and I think like, you know, nine 11 as as important as it is. And I want to ask you, how did that impact your efforts to establish this first program at DePaul? Uh, but at the same time, what role do you see in nine 11 and the different challenges it has brought for academia and the new openings that it has brought for academia and for Islamic studies?
Speaker 2 00:08:52 Um, I think, and I didn't know it then, but there were a series of schools, University of Michigan as one example, University of Chicago, of affiliate schools that in somehow were affiliated with the United States Defense Program. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they studied Islamic studies differently. I, I'm, I'm not sure how to describe cuz I wasn't in those programs. I think the language requirements for our program and then the unfortunate murder of DR. Set us on a different path and on that path, opportunities of all sorts were opened up to us. Cause then I had professors like Moham, ar out of Algeria and was given a wonderful opportunity to study a little bit at the, And that opportunity gave me a very, very different perspective because I was studying with Muslims who had come from the political chaos in North Africa, a little bit different and met some lifelong Turkish friends there. You know, it, it was just a different mix. They weren't MUS and et cetera tied in a particular way to a particular ideology, but also to do Islamic ethics, which I did with, um, Dr. Sat who's there at George Mason. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It just opened a different portal, so to speak, for me to do Islamic law ethics, but also to see and hear from men and women in ways that I wouldn't normally have, uh, been able to mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:10:56 <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what were some of the challenges you faced in establishing the, uh, the program at DePaul? Um, was nine 11 a factor? Um,
Speaker 2 00:11:07 Well, nine 11 came, Oh goodness.
Speaker 1 00:11:11 To remind our, our listeners, you started the program at DePaul at two, in 2006,
Speaker 2 00:11:17 Nine 11 was very difficult for me. Um, the death threats, the, uh, FBI winding up attaching agents to me to keep me alive. My dean and the president of the university who I knew were very, very protective, you know, which wasn't helping the death threats. But I had agents in my classrooms cause Daniel pipes and others had banded together to pay some students to be in our classroom and disrupt our classes. It was actually one of my years of a sabbatical. It's not really a sabbatical, it's really time off. And I had no time off cause I was everywhere lecturing. It was a very stressful time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> trying to figure out what was really going on in the uss take is al always a take on what serves them, not what act, not necessarily what actually is happening. But my impetus was, you know, Muslims are as shocked and dismayed by this as any other American. I don't know what you're talking about. You know, they're trying, we're all trying to figure out what is going on. But on the other hand, uh, Muslim anger at the United States, the, the reasons are long. And if you refuse to engage those reasons, then you have chaos and other kinds of, um, instances. And the US propaganda machine, it's just like any other propaganda machine. And I watched my buddies being turned into enemies because they ran like care or, or, you know, Isno or somewhere else. I mean, it was outrageous.
Speaker 1 00:13:20 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I, I wanna like, you know, talk a little bit about something you have mentioned, just to back trace to, to your temple, uh, to your Philadelphia days. How did all of a sudden my RA's death impacts you as a graduate student and, uh, your cohort members? This was 1986 and, and one day he's assassinated, essentially.
Speaker 2 00:13:46 Well, I had known for, and and his wife were really members of every community in Philadelphia. They went everywhere. They were no, a known couple Liya and her art stuff. And, and which was beautiful. And Ismail talking about not just Palestinian worlds, but things that he felt needed to be done, not necessarily in establishing Islam in America, but for Muslims in America. So we as graduate students, work with him in the establishment of the American College in Chicago to triple it all kinds of endeavors. We as graduate student, and I guess that's where the activism part comes in. It's like you study on one hand, Oh, but then you have this other stuff to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's what made studies exciting for me. The men and women I work with are just wonderful. We had long, very tiring conversations on what should an Islamic university in the United States look like? What should triple it do, What should it serve? You know, what kind of literature did we wanna put out? Cause later we found that the United States had cast any Islamic literature as like an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood. I mean, it was all of these things that we were fighting against. And I have to say, oh, his murder just, I mean, not only did it shock us in Philadelphia and especially his students, it just almost paralyzed us for a moment before we realized he would really be upset if we didn't continue his work.
Speaker 1 00:15:46 Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. The other question that, that I want to ask was, um, you spent long time in the Philadelphia area, uh, for your education and then you moved to Chicago. When we start talking about Black American Muslim International project, we will talk about sites, about cities, about movements. Two questions. You know, how do you see Islam to be distinctive in these two sides? What makes Philadelphia unique? What makes Chicago area unique in your opinion? And how was your academic work impacted by the, the sites, the cities that you lived in, uh, the places that you, uh, that you were living in?
Speaker 2 00:16:28 Well, Philadelphia was a wonderful experience for me of Islam and Muslims. But communities were very fluid. People felt the warmth and the nurture, but also the challenges of community. Immigrants, of course, were all over the place back then. And I'm talking about the early seventies. They were all over the place. But so few a number. They didn't do the racism thing, they didn't do the stereotypical thing. They were in and out of the African American communi as we were in and out of their communities. Moving to Chicago, you know, I mean Philadelphia, you had some of the beginning, so to speak. In one sense, African American Muslim communities from the East coast side, the Midwest was a much different place by the time I got their immigrant communities. Had enough folk, uh, ethnic groups so that the ethnic groups were very in, uh, exclusive. They tolerate others, but only with a kind of limited toleration.
Speaker 2 00:17:51 And you could see communities kind of growing in different trajectories, so to speak. My job as a researcher and a scholar was to go meet people in each of those communities, belonging nowhere, but kinda being a fly on the wall everywhere. And there were different struggles. The same in, in some respects, but different in other respects. And then I found myself being an inter trying to explain communities to each other and why they, there was a greater need for them to come together on issues of social justice, et cetera, than there was for them to remain isolated. So two different kind. You know, in Philadelphia, the chances of your seeing a Muslim are, are everywhere you look, there's a Muslim in Chicago, the chance you have to be in a particular neighborhood. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and Muslims are very unfriendly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in Philadelphia. Some groups are very unfriendly, but largely the, you know, all the other groups, they're very friendly and they're all over the place. I was there recently at Mass Gen Law. It was during Ramadan and a woman had her kids outside the mass. They had made goody bags for the fasting folk to break their fast with. It was cutest thing. But typically Philadelphia, you would never find that in Chicago.
Speaker 1 00:19:33 Thank you so much for the time. Thinking to your African American establi came out in 95 and thinking to your transnational Muslims in America, which came out in 2006, kind like, you know, follows through from these, your PhD project itself, Dr. I assume African American Islam sort of is is a published version of your, uh, dissertation? Or was there a more specific focus of the dissertation? Uh, any groups, any particular themes that it focused on beyond the book?
Speaker 2 00:20:06 Well, I think, you know, as you all know, dissertations or in a group kind of all by themselves and publishers don't publish dissertations. But I had a wonderful ledge sought me out. I had a wonderful editor who really work with me. Cause I was writing the dissertation at the same time that I was kind of, uh, finishing. And then I, my method approaches I better handle on them.
Speaker 1 00:20:46 Through your, your conversations with your supervisor, I dunno, who ended up being your supervisor at, at temple's, uh, religion program, uh, for your PhD. But what's, what are some of the, some advice that you give to younger scholars around thinking about their, their PhD d projects, their relationship with their supervisors? Um,
Speaker 2 00:21:10 You know, I had, um, an interesting crew that was my dissertation and everybody wanted to send their own. And I said, No, no, you all meet, send me one set. I can't, you know, I, this will drive me crazy. But I have champions, The Blind Scholar, I'm not remembering his name.
Speaker 1 00:21:34 Um, so the, the, the late professor a the professor
Speaker 2 00:21:40 Come on, just as I was finishing. So Layman Yang was one of my outside people. And I've, I found that what I did was I, I, there were questions on, and I said, You know what, all of you men are determined to drive me crazy. So let me take charge of this. And when you take church, uh, what questions that are important to be answered, how you work about them and what conclusions you drew, you know, what's your hypothesis? Was it, whether you find that out or not, or something different, What wonderful conclusions you did come through with, you're finished. But I find that now students are really, really confused. They don't seem to be getting comprehensive advice from advisors. And these are people who have been in studies for a, some of them are giving an advice they would've given students 30 years ago. And I'm saying, Well, that can't be right. And I mean, students I advised 30 years ago, I don't give that same advice to students now. And I have several PhD students. Students benefit and work best when they're guided. They of course want all the answers. You know, tell me what's gonna happen here and, and, and what should I answer here? Not realizing that they're the scholar, nobody knows really what they know because they're making a new entry into the field of knowledge and trying to pump up that confidence is fun.
Speaker 1 00:23:30 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you so much for, for sharing that. Now, switching gears a little bit, um, I I wanted us to start talking about, uh, Black American Muslim Internationalism Project. If you could give us an introduction to the project, your involvement, your role, what should our listeners, the audience, uh, expect from the project in the coming months and, and, and years? This is a three year long project, as you mentioned, uh, generously supported by hand foundations, the new initiative on understanding race and religion in America. And, and we're, we're pleased and we're so excited about it and your, uh, involvement with it. Uh, if you could give us a bit of an introduction to, to the BMI project and how you envision its making an impact.
Speaker 2 00:24:18 The BMI project is still being formalized, so to speak. I think, um, the best thing was an opportunity was there and the men and women at Aleman, uh, it might have been Ali Vo then took advantage and wrote for funding. But it's still an incomplete project. But it is tackling theological debate, religious practice, the definitions of race and American identity and hopes to map and explore various sections of the African American experience vis-a-vis the global and historical Islamic practices and institutions. African Americans have been going overseas, exploring Islam for a long time, decades, but it's never really been talked about. And how their movement back and forth across the ocean has influences here and has influences there beyond just the American who goes, who has a few pennies that turn into dollars over there. Cause of the rate exchange. There's a lot of of exchange, uh, both experiences, understanding of spirituality.
Speaker 2 00:25:51 So the project will work in collaboration with leading university based scholars, a network of community based historians and three cities that were chosen, Washington, DC area, Philadelphia and Atlanta, to try to at least provide the seeds for an ongoing multi-tiered research and programming initiative. And I think it, I know it will influence academic and public narratives around race, religion, and identity. Cause even in the broader society, much hasn't been done about that. You know, we explore races if the other things don't exist, you know, we, um, we rarely look at religion. So I think this project will introduce another prong or two into the conversation. So toward that end, we're going to hopefully use madon, which is a digital publishing platform to house, uh, both our public lectures, our convenings with scholars and community leaders, some special programs on women who are often left out of the conversation and some training programs.
Speaker 2 00:27:19 And I think after conversation I had yesterday of the major training effort will be focused on training, perhaps some undergraduate students I hope, and graduate students too, on how to be ethnographers mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that you keep building. Another piece that we hope to get in there is, uh, spaces, events, public lectures where we can have scholars meet with community leaders. So the community can tell you if you're talking about me in ways that are accurate or not. I did this once, a long time ago. I was running a series of, um, programs like that. They were wildly successful and I think very informative for the, the scholars. And it gave the community some comeuppance, you know, it's like, okay, I had my say in that he or she really listened to what we had to say about that over there. And that is so important.
Speaker 2 00:28:27 I think at George Mason we will have some of the convenings, but I hope that the project is able to influence an opening around the after Malcolm project. And as we collect some of these interviews cetera, I think that it's gonna be important. Cause all around the country, people are in disparate places collecting things, running archives. So what I would like to see is for us to use virtual reality to introduce the scope of not only the after Malcolm project, but a scope of where the center becomes the place to turn to, to find out where all these other sites are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause that's a, a service that we can give, which is different from what it's already there. So we'll be documenting, analyzing, and disseminating histories that help challenge the pervasive narrative assumptions about black communities. Almost all of which have very little to say about spirituality and nothing to say about their, uh, international character.
Speaker 1 00:29:50 Thank you, Dr. And yeah, so that aspect of the project really, um, is super exciting for me and that the intentionality behind not making it a merely, uh, university scholars sort of, um, behind this kind of like, you know, project, but rather to be, uh, to be engaged in the community, to be steeped in the community and to work together with the community, um, impacted communities, especially under your leadership is, is is really exciting. As, as you mentioned, the after Malcolm project starts documenting the, um, Islamic party and the Dar the Dar Islam, uh, moments, BMI will continue doing that, but also, you know, we will move beyond as well. What are some public facing outputs that you envision from the projects, given that you have a wonderful track record of doing that while you, you, you were at, at DePaul that's in Chicago. What's can our audiences expect, uh, what would be ways for them to, to engage with the project at this, uh, at this moment
Speaker 2 00:30:59 Hmm. Publishing outlets? Hmm. Well one is I'd like to stick a finger in triple it's publishing space. Uh, it should be a place where all Muslims can go and not just readers of Arabic. That's number one. And, and will expand their understanding of Islamic thought. Cause we're gonna have a lot of Islamic thought that comes outta this project. Secondly, I'm hoping that the space that you provide us that may die is large enough. Cause I wanna do a bunch of podcasts, you know, with the space for people to reply after a comment after hearing the podcast
Speaker 1 00:31:49 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:31:49 <affirmative>. But also to encourage folk, especially the scholars, to provide some articles, you know, as sees for their own research. You know, the world of the university is different in terms of its support for scholarship, where scholars, myself and others could go get a full bright and really go and plan ourselves somewhere and work. Those are far and very difficult to get nowadays. Uh, but there is of course within the age of technology grants for digital projects. And I think in the world of digital stuff, one of the things that makes that world exciting are the possibilities of virtual reality.
Speaker 1 00:32:44 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're super excited about that and definitely encourage our listeners to be on the look for new announcements from the project. There are some conversations happening, some will be more public. So please, uh, be on the look for that Projects, um, like team includes, you know, our colleague Boss Barger, um, Nissan Mohamed from Harvard University, um, Yu Carter from, uh, unc, Aha. And you know, Iams and, and, and many other sort of exciting names and, and colleagues who will be contributing to, to different aspects of the project under Dr. Amina's, uh, leadership. And I also am honored to, to be in that space together to you all. Dr. Am you're coming slowly to the end of our time and I want to ask if, if there's anything that you want to mention before we close and hopefully this first off, many BAI related podcasts under underdown podcasts. I wanted to to ask if you wanted to mention anything in addition.
Speaker 2 00:33:51 I don't know if I have anything to add. You've covered everything so long. I have a super advisory board, yourself included whole are making life really quite easy for me as a new project director. Mason is a democracy I never have encountered in life, but ever, you know, having only worked at a private university, coming to a state on university is really, really special. But I think our project will enliven the center and its global effort and even become a model where other projects in the center can see how they can expand their work.
Speaker 1 00:34:37 Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's our hope as well. And once again, we're super honored and excited to have you board and look forward to bringing Bai projects many outputs into Mad Down readership and Mad Down podcast listeners. Audience attention. Dr. Amina and Dean, thank you so much for joining us today and we look forward to, to, to sharing this, this podcast soon with our listeners. I wanted to give a shout out also to my colleague Micah Hughes and Nicholas Canti Micah, it is the associated editor of Mad Down podcast and Nicholas is our audio editors who us a lot of behind the, the scenes work to get our podcast published. So once again, uh, Dr. Amina, thank you so much for giving us your time and sharing your life story, your academic story, your, your insights into where scholarship today stands, and as well as, you know, giving information and, uh, the arts, like the vision for Black American, Muslim, International, and project artists. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:35:40 Thank.
