Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sakurabi.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hey, everyone.
[00:00:30] Speaker C: Assalamu alaikum. Welcome to the Islamic Mary podcast. When I started my research on the Islamic Mary, I was struck with the spoken word. The surat Mariam, or the chapter of Mary, has a unique rhyme scheme. Maryam speaks in the Quran. She talks about her pain and suffering. She teaches Zechariah, Zechariah about God's providence. And she also is someone who questions and asked about the divine will. This led me to An American Muslim Guide to the Art and Life of Preaching by Imam Suhaib Sultan and edited by Martin Yang. I knew Suhaib Sultan early in my career when I traveled to Princeton University to look at some Arabic manuscripts. Sohaib generously hosted me at his house, took me to the Princeton Muslim community, and explained to him his life as a chaplain at the university.
I heard several years ago that Suhaib was diagnosed with cancer, and I wanted to reach out to him, but unfortunately, he passed away before I had the opportunity to say goodbye. In many ways, this interview with Martin Ying is a way to honor his life and legacy.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: All right, welcome, Martin, to the Islamic Mary podcast.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: So really excited to have you here. Today we'll be speaking about your edited book, An American Muslim Guide to the Art and Life of Preaching by Suhaib Sultan, which you helped revise and expand.
And I know you had known Soheb for a long time, but can you tell us a little bit about yourself initially, your spiritual biography and how you came to help with this book?
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Sure, I guess. First and foremost, professionally, I'm a professor of Islamic studies in the Religious Studies department at Fairfield University.
My work has entailed dealing with the Quran, its interpretation, but as of late, I think I've pivoted increasingly to doing what I call constructive Muslim thought. I'm trying to think and write as a Muslim, all right, trying to imagine in what ways can the Islamic tradition help us understand the world and respond to all the things going on? You know, as for a bit about my kind of how I came to be where I'm at, I. I think there was just a moment in my career where I realized that, you know, my main target audiences weren't purely academic. There's obviously a community of scholars I want to be in conversation with, but I think I also wanted to be able to speak to the people in my congregation. Right. You know, the people in the pew, so to speak.
And writing theology is kind of my way of addressing that. What I thought was a calling, a desire to.
To make the Most of position and the talent that I've kind of developed over the years. What's interesting is that the last book that I wrote prior to this one, Modern Muslim Theology, I make this gesture near the end of it about homiletics, the art of preaching, of how I think it's important that the way that we communicate a message is just as significant as the message itself, that we should be attentive to it, that there should be a poetic quality to it.
So in some ways, when this opportunity came around to write a book on preaching or to at least help a friend get his book on preaching out, I felt it was a natural outgrowth of this kind of new concern for doing more public facing theology or doing these more kind of constructive projects.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That's something that's always impressed me about your work is the focus on the academic, but also the community. So I see how theology is important, bridge between those two. Could you speak about that more about the idea of homiletics and not even the spoken word. So us as academics, we often focus on publications, books and articles. But this was really interesting to read because it focuses, as you mentioned, on the spoken word and how the spoken word has this unique ability to move and inspire.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll also. One of my greatest frustrations with academia is the fact that we spend so much time gaining expertise, getting this doctoral training, the PhD, and we end up mimicking the mentors and scholars around us, which is not a bad thing. Right. I think it's a necessary growth. But we end up speaking to a very small audience using heavily laden jargon. You know, there are of course, complex concepts and sometimes you have to kind of create a vocabulary, a lexicon to express it. But then who does that reach? And so homiletics, at least in my mind, right. That's, you know, that's, that's speaking from a imagined pulpit. It's this idea of, of how do you address a broader audience? How do capture their imagination? What are the ways you can kind of reach them and just look to other arts, like spoken word. Right.
There's ways that it's not just what you're saying, but the cadence, the meter, the rhythm that you bring to it, the visual imagery, the choices, the stories you tell, all these things culminate and build to create what I think is a more captivating narrative. That yes, you can take those same complex ideas, those nuances that you want to convey, but can you actually translate that? So in some ways, homiletics, this art of preaching is really kind of an art of translation. We have ideas, values, principles that we want to impart and share with others. How can you do that effectively?
There's a bit of rhetoric there, art of persuasion. And in some ways, I think many of us have learned to do this kind of through trial and error, through experience, but just having a concerted look about, well, what could we do to improve how we communicate? And in this case, how can we deliver a better sermon? Is this. Is this needed? I think we want to elevate our discourse. I want to. We want to elevate our. Our means of engaging with each other and with our communities. And so works like Suhaib's, I think, are, you know, one step, kind of a building block towards creating something much, much more enduring and hopefully elevating and.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Use the word friendship. So I felt that while reading the book that this. This book was a product of our friendship. So could you speak more about the friendship you had with Sohaib and how it translated into this book?
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it's. I feel the Muslim community, once you kind of step back, you realize it's smaller than. At least in the United States, it's smaller than you imagine. You hear people. And Suheid was someone I'd come into contact with many years ago, but it was really, I would say, 2009 that we really first got to other. Well, I had gotten married. My wife Kiran had been childhood friends with Suhaib. And so we began to see each other more, right. As family friends would do. And this particular topic, right. Of the khutbah, I learned that he was working on finishing his master's at Hartford Seminary, as it was called at the time.
And he had been driven to kind of write a thesis about, you know, the art and life preaching. How can we actually do it? Well, and, you know, right away it resonated because I think he and I, as Muslims in the us We've had, you know, all sorts of experiences, the good and the bad. You know, you. You go to a Friday prayer and sometimes you're moved, and other times you're. You want to just move out, you want to get out. You exit as much as soon as possible.
But once I heard that he had written this, I was like, oh, this is something that's important. And I remember when I first heard about his thesis, I was like, you got to publish this. You gotta get it out there. You have to translate it into a book, you know, and it's not something that I think is unfamiliar to Suhaib. I mean, if you look back, he's written other books as well. The Cronford Dummies I think was the very first one he came out with. And so I knew the task was something that could certainly be done. But then over the years I would just kind of remind him, like, oh, is there anything happening with that book?
Out of personal interest? I wanted to see in the world because I wanted the quality of khutbahs to improve.
In terms of our friendship, we've had all sorts of experiences together. I'll say. One of the things that he brought me into, which was an area I did not expect to be interested in, is that when he was at Princeton, he developed as part of the Muslim Life program, this kind of more community facing endeavor called Mizan. It's a family retreat, a Muslim family retreat that was held out in Pennsylvania. And the idea was Muslim families would come out and you know, spend time on campgrounds, living in cabins, but, you know, doing all the outdoor activities you expect.
But you're also, you know, you're praying together, you're, you're having lessons together there, there's classes for kids of all ages. Right. And there's classes for adults. And it's a great time to bond and to be in nature. And I felt that was such a Suhaib thing to imagine now, I mean, as if you, if you knew Sahaba. Yeah, he liked nature, but he wasn't a big fan of animals, of actual features. But, you know, he was, he was really trying to encourage all of us to kind of re situate ourselves.
And he invited me to serve both as a high school counselor the first year, which I was, I think, terrible at, and as a teacher. But, you know, because he was my friend, I was like, yeah, I'll give it a shot. And it sounded exciting. And then I continued to be a kind of a regular teacher, not a counselor at Mizan for the many years to follow.
But, you know, we were constantly trying to connect, trying to see each other if we were passing through, near our homes. And it was finally when, let me see. Actually, no, it was several months before he had gotten his terminal diagnosis. He was visiting Connecticut. We were all at a friend's house. And that was, I remember the last time I kind of reminded him, like, what's happening with that book?
And at this point, I don't know how long had it been? It had been, it had been like half a decade more than that. Right. Of it just not going anywhere. And I understand why. So he was committed to community.
He wanted to be in the weeds of personal relationships, of doing what it took, you know, to kind of grow community in an organic, in a vibrant way. And so obviously, writing wasn't necessarily kind of first and foremost. But then when he did get his terminal diagnosis, I reached out one more time and I said, look, you know, I think at that time his prognosis was about six months to a year.
I said, I'm more than willing to take on the editorial role. Right. To edit and revise this piece because he had written it, you know, quite some time ago. But, you know, I would love to have his input, you know, with what energy and time he could spare.
Yeah, I am very appreciative of his willingness to do that, because you can imagine when you've received a terminal diagnosis, all sorts of things are going through your mind. But I do think that there was a sense of, what can I leave behind? What kind of legacy can I leave? I do feel honored that he trusted me with helping shepherd this book to its conclusion.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's something that emerges in the book, that Sohei was alive when you first started, but then he later passes away, and he didn't necessarily the publication of the book. So for many of our listeners who haven't got opportunity to meet Suhaib, maybe speak a little bit more about his personality, his character, any anecdotes that really tell us about who he was as a person.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: One, he was. He was an individual that if you ever met him for the first time, he would greet you with a smile. There was just a way he carried himself right. He spoke a lot at the end about experiencing joy within Islam. And I feel he really embodied that. Right. That he was just a person who was, you know, very disarming. He would always try to bring light to heaviness, but he was just a person who was literally a joy to be with. Constantly caring, more concerned about those around him rather than himself.
Easygoing. But, you know, if you had. If you had an issue, he would. He would take you aside and spend time with you to hear you out, to be in conversation, and sometimes just to be quiet and to listen.
So he was a gifted.
A gifted chaplain, a gifted preacher, a gifted imam, the type of faith leader, right, who. Who decenters himself. Right. In order to make space for you. I mean, so many of my stories now, because I. Maybe because I mentioned the Mizan retreat are, you know, thinking back to those camp days, it was just. It was just.
Yeah, I think I just.
Nothing. Nothing in particular is leaping to mind except being able to sit with him whether it's around the fire or whether it's around the ring of chair out in nature. But I, you know, I. I'm glad that my fond memories are of him vibrantly right amidst his community, just bringing.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Us all together in terms of the actual book. And you. You mentioned this or allude this. So can you speak about the process of how this book came about? Because it starts with this friendship, but then it's almost these informal conversation you had with him and then eventually turns into a publication while he is sick. So, yeah. Tell us more about how this book came about, the logistics. How did you work with him, the publisher, your role in particular.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
You know, to start off, you know, I had sent him a text message, you know, several weeks after he had publicly announced kind of his situation to the broader Muslim community.
And he responded right away that, like, yes, I want to do this right.
But then the next step was, well, how do I get this thesis? And obviously he had a lot on his plate. A good friend of ours, a mutual good friend, Omar Bajwa, the Muslim chaplain at Yale, he happened to have a copy of the thesis. Right. And once he heard that this was in the works, that, you know, Suhaib has given his blessing, his approval.
I got the original Word document from Omar and that's when I just kind of dove into it. First I wanted to read the whole thing to get a sense what is this all about? To get a vision of the arc of it all.
But then we developed a process. Suhaib and I, we. We decided we would try to meet regularly, to call each other regularly, rather. Right. Like a phone call every. Every other Sunday, I think was the goal.
And, you know, I would do a little bit of work reading on the, on. On the documents.
I divided it up into individual chapters and I would send it to him with comments or with my revisions and he would approve or write back.
But I think the other thing we had decided to do was add a new chapter. And this is something that, you know, it wasn't originally part of the thesis. If you look at the book now, there's a. I think it's chapter five, right.
Which is now called On Women and the Friday Prayer Service. That did not originally exist in the thesis that he wrote for Hartford Seminary, but I remember visiting him at Princeton and attending the Jummah services there that, oh, this is a different type of setup, that they have a different model than what many Masajid and MSAs will do. On Friday that women had a clearly more prominent place.
And I also heard from him, right, in conversation about the things that he had tried.
And I felt that was important to include. Right, because this is a book on preaching and it's not just on giving sermons. It's really about the whole experience, the prayer service itself.
And it was very clear that everyone who was attending the service and, you know, it was very well attended, people came out for it. There was a sense of welcome. He had somehow, you know, translated his own. His own kind of disposition, welcoming disposition into this Friday prayer service. And I wanted him to, to think and write a bit about what his community had gone through and what he had tried and to, to. To help broaden those horizons.
And so, you know, in addition to the regular revisions to the original thesis, I asked him, could you write something about how you were attentive to the concerns and the needs of women right, in your community?
And that took some time because that required him to really sit and think and write. But I do remember there were two occasions where there were just these bursts of activity where you would just send me, right, like, you know, like a stream of paragraphs trying to capture the conversations that happened on the ground. Students that came to him and said, well, could you do this? Or this or this? And then the town halls, he would convene. So, you know, there were two occasions where I got these, these. These two substantive texts which I then had to kind of merge together.
Those, those. Those two spurts were several months apart. But I do remember that the big task for me was to kind of interweave them into coherent chapter and also to see if I could capture his voice, you know, by this, that point in time. I had revised, you know, maybe two or three chapters. I had a good sense of his writing style and I was trying to bring that there. I think, I think one of the problems, a challenge, right, is we often impose our own voice. And if you, if you read the book, the, the forward and the afterword are entirely mine. And. But it's a very different voice than Suhaib's, which, Which is the rest of it.
Unfortunately, Suhaib didn't have the opportunity to kind of review the final product of chapter five. But, you know, his wife Arshi and other friends who knew him, who were in that community, I shared it with, to say, like, is Suhaib's voice here, right? Does this sound. Is1. One is reflective of what actually happened in your community, the things you tried. But, but you hear Shaheb speaking, right? And I would say, you know, a good 75% of that written text, the core text is. Is Suhaib's. I just tried to kind of create the transitions, to make it coherent, to make it kind of hold together as one. So that chapter was a bit of a process.
The other chapters were pretty straightforward, typical copy editing, just, you know, evening out style, getting references, making sure things were standard. While that's all going on too, I also realized, well, we need to secure a publisher. And I would say, you know, again, I took on a lot of that work because I didn't. I feel like the decision of press wasn't something that they wanted to spend those last months really kind of figuring out. But I remember the two things, the two big options were in my head were, do we go with a traditional kind of Muslim press?
The thing is, you know, there are a lot of great Muslim presses out. A lot of them are dedicated to translation.
Where do original works get out and what is the low of distribution? Or do we go with a non Muslim press?
And, you know, being a regular attendee of the American Academy of Religion, if you go to the book exhibit, you realize there's university presses that publish all the scholarly books that we, we love to, to try to write. But there's also a good number of. Again, they're academic presses, but they're there for Christian theology, Christian homiletics, you know, for Christian ethics.
But those are mass oppresses. They're not just publishing for university libraries. They're actually publishing for Christian congregations. They have a lot of reach. They're very professional and polished. They can print books to scale. And so. Oh, actually, yeah, I realized you were key in this whole process because you were working on your Islamic Mary text. And you had mentioned to me that Fortress had been one of the presses that had been really helpful, well, receptive to the work you were doing. And, you know, I decided to kind of check out what they published, and they had a whole preaching, kind of a homiletics division. And so I reached out to an editor there and he very graciously said, send me a proposal. Tell me more about what you were doing. And so one of the last things I was able to kind of to. To discuss with Suhei before he passed was Fortress Press as a potential publisher. I was, I was hesitant because I realized if he, if he wanted to go with a traditional Muslim press, I'd be happy to do that, to pivot and move in that direction. But when I mentioned Fortress, he thought that was perfect, right? I think as a student of the chaplaincy program at Harvard Hartford Seminary, which is now Hartford International University, he had benefited from the Christian literature in his own training and formation and study.
And I think there was this kind of mutual feeling that while we have, in our respective roles benefited from the writings of Christians, whether it's on theology or preaching or what have you, perhaps our work could also be a benefit to that community.
And so publishing with Fortress would provide us the ability to publish one in paperback at an accessible price, reach Muslims who were interested in the text, but maybe it also, right, in terms of its advertising, its marketing, it might reach people who are interested in interfaith working from the Christian world. And I have to say, working with Fortress was, Was. Was very. It was a good experience all around. I had a fantastic editor. Things were quite well done and professional, and the book really was able to.
To have quite a good amount of reach. Unfortunately, we had the contract, but I was unable to get Suhaib to sign because his condition worsened and he passed very, very quickly. But. But his wife Arshi was able to sign on his behalf.
I think that's really. Oh, I was about to say that's almost the entire process. But if you look at the book, you know, the copy I have here has an image of him on it.
And so, you know, it was after he passed that the. The question of the book cover came up.
And so I reached out to Arshi if there might be an image that might be good to use, if maybe they had taken something, something from their own kind of collection. And this was a photo that they took together at the Turkish Masjid that's down in Maryland.
And you know, the image of Suhaib just kind of flipping through what I think is a Quran looking out the window just seemed to seem to capture Suhaib himself, right. In this kind of contemplative pose, but also spoke to the role of the preacher, which the book was about. And so we, we submitted that as a possibility.
And you know, I think all parties involved, the press included, just, Just love that. And they designed what I think is a gorgeous cover to the book.
So that, I think captures a lot of the process.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: No, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I felt also reading the book was this idea that this wasn't, as you mentioned, a theoretical book. Like he wrote it as part of his dissertation or his thesis, but then he was active in the community and had a lot of experience with preaching himself. So as you mentioned, this book is a labor of love born from the fruits of faith.
So I think this idea that he had this close relationship to his community and that reflected in his scholarship and his writing.
So could you speak a little bit more about the structure of the book? You already mentioned and highlighted certain aspects. So the first four chapters are his thesis, and then chapter five is what you mentioned, on Women in the Friday Prayer Service. So the first four chapters are on the purpose of preaching, on the life and character of a preacher, on the craft of sermon writing, and then on the delivery of the sermon. So I'm curious, can you speak.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: About how that was structured and, and how you preserve Soheb's voice?
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I remember when I first was reading through the, the, the manuscript. Right. Of his thesis, I was just immediately struck by that second chapter, the one about kind of the character of the preacher himself, and dawned on me that that's exactly what needed to be kind of shared.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Because I think there are certain kind of. It's a very pragmatic book.
It's a practical, hands on. These are things you need to do.
These are the types of sermons you can deliver. This is how you can go about the craft of writing and developing your sermon. And then what does it look like, the space you're giving it in the way that you're going to speak and deliver? Are you going to have note cards? You're going to do it off the cuff? Pros and cons of all that. That's all to be expected.
But when you included that second chapter, I mean, I think that's where the life in the title really gets underscored, that so much of our expectations isn't just about the message, but it's also about the person that we're turning to or for guidance.
So I do want to maybe make an inclusion which helps maybe connect with the fifth chapter, is that, you know, we're also very conscious of the gendered language of the pronouns that we were going to use. That obviously. Right. When you're speaking of Khatibs, you're going to be thinking of a male figure who's going to be delivering the sermon every Friday, but he's also working in chaplaincy, Muslim chaplaincy, where men and women are working hard to provide pastoral care, religious support to their communities and that both Muslim men and women are going to be addressing their congregation. Now, obviously, maybe not from the pulpit, but they're going to be doing so in Halaqas. They're going to be doing so at special events, keynotes, all sorts of things.
And so the guidance provided here isn't really just for the Friday prayer service, but thinking more broadly the ways in which both Muslim men and women are faith leaders, right? People who are providing guidance and care and support.
And so that element of character, I thought, was really instrumental thinking about Islam in the United States, where we're a marginalized, minoritized kind of community.
The Friday prayer service strikes me as kind of one of. One of the few touch points that a Muslim may have with their religious life.
They're busy living perhaps as the only Muslim in their neighborhood, in their school, in their workplace. But attending Friday prayer, all of a sudden you're. You're with your. Your community. And so the experience you have there is of extreme importance. And you're not just thinking about what's being said, but who is this individual who's addressing me? And depending on your reception, your experience of that, that's going to bring you back later on. Are you going to return the following Friday? Are you going to go to any of these other events or programs? Are you going to seek out counseling or advice, right, from this particular individual?
And so the idea of, you know, not only being a good preacher in a practical sense, but also just being a. An exemplary individual, right? I mean, our whole faith is about imitating the Prophet Muhammad and, you know, who should be leading that. It's our faith leaders, whether they're men or women, they should also be embodying the Sunnah in their own ways. And so I think his addressing of that was so characteristically Suhaib, because I think he kept that in mind in his role, right, as a chaplain, as, you know, Imam Suhaib at Princeton.
And he was sharing it here, I think. And something you alluded to, which I do want to emphasize too, is that he wrote this as his master's thesis, but now we're expanding and revising it many years later. Right now he has like a decade's worth of experience in the role of imam, of providing kind of on the ground care, of addressing communities of all stripes. Well, you know, he has a substantial amount of experience as chaplain at Princeton.
You know, he's being invited, he's visiting, he's delivering sermons in a whole variety of contexts, different massages, different settings, whether it's other MSAs. And so I think part of the revision process is being attentive to the growth that transpired and seeing. Well, what else would you add? You know, now that you're, you know, a decade later looking at the same.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Same work, that's something that really Struck me, looking over the first four chapters is the. His belief in the potential of that space. As he, as you note that is opportunity to learn more about your faith, more about connecting with spirituality, your community.
But it's also a space that's been abused or there's a space that's, there's a lot to be wanting, whether it's someone being distracted or all over the place or engaging in rants.
So I think he really believed in that Friday sermon and the Jummah prayer and as an opportunity really to bring people together and have them on this common vision and mission. So maybe we could speak a little bit more about the chapter five, because that was really unique when I looked at this book.
And it was unique in the sense that it sounds like you almost co authored that chapter or at least helped put that chapter together.
And then that wasn't part of the original master thesis. And specifically the idea of how do you incorporate women within the Friday prayer service? So he talks about these different models, the Bayan model, the Dara model, and then the recitation model.
So can you speak about that, like how he Suhaib incorporated women within the service and these different models that he tried and some were successful and others weren't.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he really tried to approach things through a great deal of consultation. Right. He would speak to his teachers, his mentors, the elders that he would often go to for all sorts of various matters to get a sense of, well, you know, what could we possibly do and try what falls within the bounds of the tradition, you know, like what's going to be fit, compliant, those sort of things. But he also was quite consultative with his own community.
He wanted to gather the community together and say, these are, there are concerns that have been raised. Right. I think we do talk about, or we allude to this in the chapter about the original kind of concerns that were brought forward were kind of in the wake of the women led prayers that were, that were transpiring, I guess, quite some years ago of, well, how can we create space for women here on campus, right, to be part of Muslim life.
And so these models that they tried were an attempt to give women more stake ownership. Right. In the community.
And I remember it was actually women who would deliver these very beautiful dua at the end of the service.
That was my own impetus, my own impulse to ask, oh, what's the history behind this? Right. You know, that's what I wanted him to bring into the revision of this, of this book, an expansion of it. So it's based entirely on his own experiences. But I was trying to kind of just, just make it sound like a chapter that would fall in line with the other ones. But the Bayan model was very much this idea that, you know, you're not giving the khutbah, but you're giving, you're delivering kind of, kind of, you know, religious advice prior to the actual khutbah starting. It allows women to kind of have their voice heard, to kind of share their concerns, to provide their own kind of guidance and thoughts on matters.
And then there was the, the, the Dua model where at the end of a service, when the, when the, the whole Juma service is completed, members of the community, a man or a woman could actually deliver.
Wow, Almost as if they're delivering poetry, right? But they're following the model of what a dua looks like, right? To call upon God to address whatever's happening in the world or locally or within their own community.
And then there was also the Quranic recitation model, having women recite Quran. And I remember he would have women at the mizan retreat, right, reciting Quran at different points in time after the prayer services, what have you.
And, you know, these three models that he shares were met with varying degrees of success. And we try to emphasize this, that what you're reading and experiencing in this book is what has worked by and large in a Friday prayer service setting in a community that is based at a university.
This is not a one size fits all solution. But by sharing these possible models to explore, you might hit upon something that works for your own community. I think that was the way we were trying to frame it, that these are not necessarily solutions. In fact, the Bayan model didn't really work very well. It was met with a lot of resistance or raised a lot of questions. But in the end, the Dua model is something that has endured and stayed on even after he passed within the Princeton community.
Which also, I guess, gets to the appendix, right? One of the things that we also wanted to include were some of the duas that had been shared and written.
And I asked Imam Suhaib, could you collect some of these pieces?
And you know, in very short time he was able to kind of pull from these contributions made by members of his community, these women, Arshi included, that are stunning, I think, right when you read them, they're quite moving. And we wanted to include them to show that this is really the product not just of Imam Suhaib's experiences, but like the experience of his faith community. This is what They've developed and grown into.
And we also hope that that last little appendix would also be an inspiration for people to think more consciously of what is the dua?
What kind of duas do we deliver and give and share with each other? How might they look and sound?
And so I think that's something that we wanted to include for that purpose.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I love the appendix. That was something also unique about this book that was different than others I've looked at. And as you said, you really get inside view of the community and their hopes and their dreams and even their thoughts of. So, hey, they mention him, and it seems like some of these duas are captured after he passed away.
So. So, yeah, so these are, I believe, five different duas. And as you note, they were written in almost like poetic form, and they were presented and delivered after the prayer service was completed. So, yeah. Could you speak more about this? This is a really interesting and unique part of. Of the book.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, in some ways, this is where the dua meets artistry. Right. Or the artistry of the dua comes forward. Right. We were talking about spoken word earlier, and I really feel that, you know, in addition to, you know, the message, the supplications that we want to kind of incorporate into the dua, you're also delivering in a certain way. Right. In an emotive way to kind of bring the community in with you. And so, you know, these.
These duas, I think, just kind of help make this a more. Kind of. It makes it. Makes it a more intimate community. Right. There's a way in which you're. You're addressing the things that are on the minds of people in the congregation who are kind of lined up there. And, you know, even when you think about the. The formal khutbah itself, you know, how does it end? It ends with a whole degree of supplications. And while there are ones that, you know, that we should be reciting or invoking Right. Together collectively, because they're Quranic, it's also an opportunity to call out. Right. To call it to God or the things that are clearly on our minds now. So even the khatib should also be quite attentive to, well, what are those closing duas that year to make prior. Prior to the congregational prayer itself.
Yeah. And I think it's something that I would love to see duas have a more prominent role in Muslim life in the U.S. right. That, you know, just as we have chronic recitation that kind of opens up many of our gatherings and events. How Beautiful would it be to have duas, maybe close things out. It kind of allows more people in the community to actually feel a sense of ownership that. Yes. You know, I'm also. I have a voice as well.
[00:35:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. So. So maybe we could move to the afterward and the conclusion of this book and a lot of fascinating themes emerge. One of them you mentioned in the introduction and also in, in the afterward and conclusion is this idea of Sadaqa Jariya, this idea of this continuous legacy. And so could you explain that term for us? And this is a term that Sahaib used himself and how this book could be.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you can think of it as an ongoing charity. A charity that continues to give. Right. A means of beneficence.
A benefit, rather. I mean, not beneficence. It's a benefit that continues to support those that you leave behind.
And, you know, for him, I think he envisioned this book and the various words he's delivered as a means of continuing to give even when he's not present. You know, I think something that is worth noting is that for Suhaib, until he got his diagnosis, he wasn't much of a public speaker. He didn't like to kind of be on the circuit, so to speak. But I think once he realized, oh, I only have so much time left with my community, both at Princeton in New Jersey, but also broadly, more broadly, he began to do more interviews and podcasts. He began to speak more, to reflect more deeply on life and death, realizing that his own experience of his final moments, of his final year could be something that could help others. Right? That could help people struggling with their own faith or their own mortality, their own kind of time in this Dunya. And so, you know, I think this book is just one part of that, of that larger legacy that he was hoping to leave behind. And again, when I say legacy, I do think Sadaqa Jaria, right. This kind of ongoing charity, ongoing kind of form of benefit for the community is.
Is maybe the best way to understand it that, you know, I hope that generations from now that people will continue to look at this book as significant, or at the very least, that this book has inspired others to produce kind of a whole library of literature on. On Muslim homiletics, on the art of preaching, on the, you know, on the life of the preacher, so that, you know, so that one day we look back and think, oh, wow, Friday prayer is something I constantly look forward to. And it's because that, you know, there's this cumulative building of a Culture of qual quality sermons and services and what have you.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: No, that's great. And I think also I had the same impression of Soheb. I knew him personally, and he wasn't an imposing figure and he wasn't a national figure on the circuit, as you say. He seemed very devoted to his community.
But this is fascinating that he. His last year of his life, he wanted to leave something not just only for his community, but for other people in different places and times. So.
And you mentioned this beautiful idea of a gift.
So we talk about this idea of sadhakajaria, of this perpetual charity, but then you conclude the book talking about how this book is a gift, and you say very poetically, accept this book then, as it was intended as an ongoing gift. It is a gift to all those who Soheim knew, a gift to all those he did not yet to know, and a gift for all those yet to come. So, so many things have emerged in this interview, whether it's friendship or perpetual charity, but you end with this idea of a gift. So could you expand a little bit more on that?
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, the idea of the gift is. Is.
Is very intriguing because, I mean, authors spent a lot of time on what is the nature of gift giving. Right. Is the idea of that we give in hopes of receiving something in return. But I really think of this book as a gift from Imam Suhaib because there was no expectation, right? He knew his time was coming. He was going to be returning to his Lord, and he just wanted to give this almost without any expectation of reciprocity. He just wanted to see its benefits blossom, or rather to hope that those benefits would blossom in a time yet to come.
But I think also the. The other end of that quote is. Is both he and my own kind of commit commitment to this idea that, yes, we want to be addressing those with whom we live, with whom we pray, with whom we coexist, but there's so many others we haven't yet met that we also want to be able to reach. And then there's going to be future generations. I think both Suheba and myself as fathers, right. We're always thinking of a time to come, that there will be a time when we are not here, and then there'll be generations even beyond that. And that the work that we do isn't just for the immediacy of the moment, but it's really trying to seed something that will reach on until.
Until we reach the Yomokiyama. Right? And so I think there is this, this. This sense that we need to not just be attentive to the now, but mindful of. Of. Of future struggles that will be coming.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And to that point about gift, what would you say then, is the conclusion or what would you want people to walk away from this book or the key takeaways? How can people benefit? What can they learn?
How can it inspire their community or their spiritual journey?
[00:41:03] Speaker A: I think there's two things. I think, one, the first thing that jumps to mind is that I think there's a lot of people love, who like the idea of being a leader, right? Of being in that position where their words are heard, but it's more that. It requires more than that. And I think what Imam Suhaib was trying to emphasize with his work is you also need to embody what you're preaching. You need to also exude the very ethics that you're aspiring to kind of bring into the world.
There's. There's a prophetic way of being that you need to also demonstrate that the deeds of your life speak perhaps even louder than the words that you're going to deliver.
So there's, there's that, right. The idea that we also need to live up to what we are saying.
I think the other thing, and I don't know if this comes out as clearly, but I, I do hope people realize this, is that the art of preaching isn't reserved just for the elite. I think that what Imam Suhaib is trying to share is a guide for many of us to kind of take on this role.
And I think, especially in a situation where, you know, we're a minoritized community, whether you're working in a hospital or an office space, right, where. Where the closest Juma service is distant or in a university where there's only a few Muslims, that each, each of us should feel empowered to kind of take on this role. That it's not, as, you know, it's not something that is only for the privileged few. I mean, if you take on the role and treat it with the respect it deserves, but that you can right with, with practice, with, with mindfulness consideration, you also can. Can deliver a religious message, whether it's in a sermon or whether it's in your own faith community, that it's not so far off. And so, you know, the, the idea of addressing our communities of faith, I'm hoping it's more accessible to each of us. That, again, it's kind of a tight bind, right? Because the khutbah is such A bounded space.
And yet, as Muslims, we find ourselves in all sorts of situations where we're speaking about matters of the religion, whether it's interfaith or internal, that we should. You know, that there are. There are a lot of lessons that we can glean from wisdom about doing that, whether it's about preparing your remarks or whether it's about being attentive to the. The aesthetics of the space you're going to be in. It's not just about the Joma service. It's. It's much. It's. It's part of our everyday, in a manner of speaking.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. And as I even look at the title, again, it's not just the art or a guide for preachers.
It's, as you kind of know, the art and life of preaching. So preaching, it seems like, could be done by anyone, and it could be more open and. And less elitist and more democratized and. And so forth. So, yeah. So was there anything else you would want to share with us regarding this book, your relationship with Sahaib, or anything that you would want a reader or someone even listening to this podcast to take away?
[00:44:15] Speaker A: Good question.
I would hope that if people are inspired to pick up this book, to read it with an open mind, realizing that the situation, the context you're in, may call for a different array of lessons to be drawn from this or maybe a different approach altogether, and that if anything, maybe this will inspire you to write your own kind of a guide. Right. Or maybe a manual of some sort that I think we each have something to say. It's just a matter of finding the best way of doing it.
And for those of us who are drawn into kind of those positions of public speaking where faith is at the core of the message being delivered, that Suhaib has given us a beautiful model to follow, but that we should also be developing our own models based upon who we are and where we're from and who we live with.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Martin, for joining the podcast.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Oh, it's been fantastic. Thanks again for having me.
[00:45:18] Speaker C: And that was my interview with Martin Yang. So many things struck me in that interview. First, the idea of friendship. Martin and Sohei were friends, and the idea of the book emerged from informal conversations they had. And as I tell my students, learning can happen anywhere. It's not simply in a book or a documentary or within class.
Learning can happen in these informal settings.
[00:45:40] Speaker B: When you're having tea, sharing a meal.
[00:45:43] Speaker C: With someone, or going on travels. The second thing that struck me was the idea of the spoken word that as academics we often focus on writing and publishing, but we see increasingly with the advent of social media that the spoken word is also influential and that Sohaib realized the power of the spoken word in the Friday sermon or the khutbah. It's important that teachers and educators understand that there's an art behind the spoken word and that the spoken word has the ability to influence and inspire. And the last thing that struck me was the idea of community, that Imam Sahaib was not someone who simply spoke for the sake of speaking, or was not mesmerized by his own words, but was trying to build a community. And that is evident within the book itself, especially within the appendix which captures the various duas or supplications made at the Friday prayer. Imam Sahaib understood that the Jummah prayer and the khutbah itself, its sermon as well as the spoken word, had the ability to build a community that could be a model for others. Thanks once again for listening to the Islamic Mary podcast. You can always subscribe to the podcast and major podcast platforms. Encourage your friends, student and colleagues to listen to the podcast. You can always text me. There is a new feature on the show Notes where you can text me your feedback, your thoughts, your ideas, other interviews that we can conduct and feel free to review this podcast as well as visit my website and join my newsletter will be updated on my scholarship and research. Thanks once again and take care.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: Of.
