Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome to on the square. A special podcast brought to you by SAP Willow square in collaboration with the may dad. I am Dr. <inaudible> senior editor of staphylo square and curator producer of this podcast where every month we get on the square and into some real talk about race at a slam and the Americas. On this episode, we will look at being Muslim on turtle island, but siddiqa Sharif Hickman and Hazel Gomez. Siddiqa Sheree fifth, man is the administrator for the biophysics research for Baltimore teens program and internship at Johns Hopkins university geared towards introducing scientific research to underserve youth in Baltimore city. She enjoys writing, traveling and is an avid reader. So DECA currently resides in Baltimore, Maryland with her husband and three small children. Hazel Gomez is a faith-based community organizer with dream of Detroit, a nonprofit that uses strategic housing and land development and organizing to empower a marginalized neighborhood, a neighborhood in which she also lives with her husband and children.
Speaker 0 00:01:16 Hazel is a student of the Islamic sciences, and also dedicates her time as an advisor and board member to various nonprofits ranging from convert care and anti-racism work to bail reform. She's an avid reader of all things about Muslims in America and is interested in the research and creation of an authentic Latino Muslim experience. Before we begin our conversation today, I, as a descendant of stolen people on stolen land wants to begin with a land acknowledgement. I acknowledge that the land upon which we live is the ancestral and unseated territory of the indigenous nations of turtle island. Also known as south America. I also begin acknowledgement of the histories of colonialism, imperialism and resistance that brought us here today. That every day is I showed up and every lab is credible. So the topic of today's episode was inspired by a recent recent talk if my Hazel, so Hazel, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired that title in that talk
Speaker 1 00:02:20 Hamdulillah thank you so much, Dr. <inaudible> for inviting us, inviting me on the square today to discuss this very important topic from the law. So as you mentioned, right, a couple of months ago, I gave a talk titled what does a Medina on turtle island look like first? I want to paint this image for you. John Tavarus avant a member of the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe. She wrote about why north America is known as turtle island to indigenous tribes. And this is what she wrote. One reason the continent shape their north American area has the shape of the turtles shell with a spiny Ridge, the Rocky mountains protruding from the shell or the tail of Mesoamerica, the limbs of Florida, Baja, California, Alaska, and Quebec Labrador, and the head pointing toward the north pole. The continent also has 13 regions that correspond to the 13 plates that are on the turtle shell.
Speaker 1 00:03:31 And I absolutely love that image because we can just close our eyes and just see that the land that we live on tread on walk on has this beautiful image of a turtle. So then my next question is, well, why Medina? The reason why Medina is because it was the establishment of a diverse and plural communities where the profits <inaudible> paired the residents and the newly arrived migrants where people of other faiths lived amongst one another, where socioeconomic class didn't necessarily determine where people lived at, at least among the Muslims. So that's the beauty of our faith tradition, right? Is that it spans across cultures. It's touched lands all over the globe and it continues to spread and manifest in such unique ways. And the nation state of the United States is no different, better known as turtle island. So although in my talk, I focused more on the importance of urban development instead of suburban development within our Muslim communities. I also highlighted the racial lines that are drawn due to such developments. And overall though, as I was preparing for that talk and delivered it in everything, it's left me with a much deeper question. And that question is as Muslims and as people of faith, how do we acknowledge uplift and center the original inhabitants of this stolen land.
Speaker 0 00:05:10 Thank you. Um, for that Hazel, I think, you know, when I, when I first saw the title that you had, um, creating the Dina does, that's also what it made me think of, right? Like, so I'm Muslim. I live in the United States, I know this is stolen land. Right. And so what, what do I do? Or like, how am I supposed to navigate, uh, what, what are my responsibilities, right? When I have that knowledge. And so I want to invite siddiqa views to sort of speak to what Hazel said, right. In terms of, you know, what that title right. Um, means to you. So you, particularly as someone who is black, who is native and who is Muslim, well, first of all, I want to thank you and thank you Hazel for painting that beautiful illustration of what, uh, turtle island actually is represents, um, to native people.
Speaker 0 00:06:00 Um, first of all, I remember the first time I ever heard that term, uh, my aunt, um, referred to the wa like north America as turtle island. And that that's the way that she had always, um, called it growing up. And I remember asking her, you know, why is it called turtle island? And she told me, um, something similar to not as, not as a beautiful, uh, beautifully described as, as Hazel. Um, but she referred to the shape of the United or the north American continent, um, and the shape of a turtle. And I thought when I was younger, I thought, well, how did they know? You know, that it was shaped like a turtle as someone who was African American, um, native American and Muslim, uh, growing up, I, you know, I never had, there was no duality or, um, it was something that was very easily.
Speaker 0 00:07:00 It flow very easily for me and for my family, we were, we were black, we were native, we were Muslim. And, you know, I came from a very supportive and very, um, close knit community. Um, it came out of the nation of Islam, um, and had embraced a mainstream or what people would call it, Orthodox, Orthodox Islam. Um, and in our community, there were loads of people like me, you know, Afro native and Muslim. And when we had, we had a very vibrant community life and my mother, um, was a part of a singing group, um, which I know it's probably controversial for a lot of people to think that, you know, there was a woman's singing group that's saying in the measured for everyone, um, to hear, but that's how our community was. And we had a night up song every year and my mother and her, um, my aunt, uh, and my aunt and mother, uh, were always a part of it as well.
Speaker 0 00:08:05 And so my mother saying this year from Hammad Ali, he came to visit our messages, my mother saying the song <inaudible> man to him. Um, and then we had a fashion show and I remember the, uh, music changed and they switched and they were playing, um, Stony Creek, which is a drum circle that, um, belongs to it's like a east coast powwow drum circle group that, um, my aunt's mother came in, dressed in full regalia. Um, and she walked through the message. It, you know, she was also Muslim well through the messages, um, displaying her, her regalia. And that, for me, that, you know, that was normal. That was just something that we did every year and every year, that's what, that's, what happened. Like the palbo drums would play. And I would feel that same beat that, that strong jump drum beat that you would hear the polo and that kind of festivity, um, was no different from me going to like the Paolo.
Speaker 0 00:09:18 Also, as I grew up, there were, uh, difficulties associated with being Muslim and being black and, and indigenous, not necessarily for my family, but for people who were not of that same, um, of our same background or who didn't acknowledge that within their own background, they may have been native, but they didn't acknowledge that. And I think that growing up, um, as we left our community or as our community shifted, because there was a lot of, uh, you know, I dunno how to explain, but there were lots of, um, divisions within the communities at some point. And our community, uh, was fragmented. And a lot of, um, folk with a different ideology started to kind of like pour into our community and what we saw as normal, like me and my cousins and my sisters, like growing up, going to sweat lodge or going to the powwow, we're going to, um, different indigenous, uh, festivities and ceremonies, which were for us, like very normal.
Speaker 0 00:10:22 It became, um, something that was seen as head, um, or, um, they were in Congress with, um, being a Muslim. And, um, that was difficult. It was difficult to kind of, uh, walk that, walk in that path with the scrutiny of people who were not from my community or who were not from that, the ideology that did not see an issue with that. Can I ask you a question? Go ahead. Um, and so, and how did, um, so, so, so how did the native, how did your native community experienced you as a black person and as a Muslim?
Speaker 0 00:11:09 So it's interesting because, um, so, you know, my cousin, my Muna, uh, our family, um, I would say that it's like we in the native community, there's a, like a, a phrase don't make war, make relatives. So I have cousins who are probably closer to me than my actual blood cousins, like my Muna and her mother, um, mama walks on water. Um, our families became close because we were both Afro native families. And so I kind of it to her. Um, I became very close to her mother. Who's like, mom, if you asked my mother, she'll say, that's your, you know, your second mother. So if we were all at the Paolo together, you, for me, I always cover my hair. So no one could necessarily tell that, like what my hair looked like, which is a big indicator that you have mixed blood, you know?
Speaker 0 00:12:04 So, um, I never really got, I never experienced any, I guess, prejudice because no one could look at me and say, oh, she's not native. But if I was with my, I remember sitting with my mom and my sisters at a powwow and my cousins and we were all just all together. And I, I had met someone there and we were just hanging out with the powwow and I was like, oh yeah, come on. We're going to go sit with my family. And so I remember him looking and looking at my family, like, oh, that's her family. And I already knew from looking at his face that he's now seeing that I am black and native and he's confused. So I said, uh, yeah, we're mixed. Like our family is mixed black and native. And he was like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, my, my nephews are, are, have Seminole and have, uh, have black, you know, but it was just a, it's always been a weird experience.
Speaker 0 00:13:10 And I remember going to the powwow, the Baltimore powwow, which is full of Lumbees, um, like our, our, uh, host tribe is the Lumbee tribe, which is a mixed tribe, by the way. Like if you, um, if you look at the history of the NIMBYs or any east coast tribe, uh, for that matter, but the Lumbees in Baltimore, very fair skinned. Um, almost, you know, they look very mulatto if you, if you will. But, um, my, I was there with my grandmother and my mother and sisters and brothers and cousins, and, you know, my Muna who was a little darker, um, and her, she had her hair braided, but you can, you know, you can see the curl in our hair. And she, uh, she was on the arena floor in full regalia with, um, I think she had, uh, otters hanging from her braids.
Speaker 0 00:14:08 And I just remember, I mean, I can, I can tell you her entire outfit. It was like this golden red, beautiful traditional, um, regalia. And, um, the, the person who was the announcer, uh, the MC said for someone to get the black girl off the arena floor, I can't remember like the exact way it was said, but I remember that was a turning point from Emma when she was very young, but that was a turning point for my Muna. And we were all kind of chef, but granny went up and was like, that's my grandma, that's my granddaughter. And of course, you know, there were all these apologies, but the damage had been done like, hello, this is a Afro Nita family sitting here, like all of us, like our effort indigenous aside from Grammy, you know? Um, but it was something that, um, put a very bad taste in our mouth, growing up, being Afro native in a native spaces.
Speaker 0 00:15:18 Um, so we never, you know, after that, we never felt fully comfortable in, um, native spaces, unless it was a mixed, a mixed tribe. Like if you went to the alabaster pony, but how do I say a pony, um, uh, powwow or the, I remember the time that mum went to, went to the, um, Shinnecock powwow and it, you know, the Shinnecock or a tribe I've been, uh, upstate New York and it's a mixed tribe. It's a Afro native tribe. The whole tribe looks like, you know, my family or something. So the first time she went there, she called the whole family. And she was like, next year, we're all going to the Palau together. And my sister happened to marry a man who's Muslim. Um, but his, his family's Shinnecock. So, um, we were all just really excited to, to find a home, um, in a native space where you didn't necessarily feel uncomfortable being, um, mixed because, you know, as long as you're mixing, I don't want to sound controversial, but if you were mixed with white, no one would have an issue with you being native enough.
Speaker 0 00:16:33 Um, at least not on the east coast, but if you are clearly Afro native, then there was a stigma like there, um, was this idea that you were kind of like faking either from, you know, uh, descendants of Africans, um, you know, African-American people or, um, from native people here. Um, and it was, that's, that's something that's always been, uh, disquieting, um, and, you know, not being able to feel fully comfortable as a, you know, as an adult. I, I, you know, I, I kind of have accepted, um, that I am who I am, and if you like it, that's great. If you don't, you know, that's also fine. Um, but growing up, it was something that, uh, was difficult too, to manage or to, um, find your, your, your safe space. Yeah, no, I can, I can imagine. I think, um, you know, those are really powerful stories, right?
Speaker 0 00:17:45 What you're talking about in terms of both navigating kind of this really rich identity you have, right. And this really in a deep, you know, sort of connection, right. To sort of really important histories, right. That make up what we call turtle island and then trying to navigate that right. Sort of as a Muslim, um, like you have that in Muslim spaces and that native spaces. And it makes me think about term, right. Um, and so like fella colonialism, right. Is the term that we use as describe, right. The kind of colonialism that established the us. Right. And so for those who don't know the ideas that a settler state like the us is established by columnists who come to stay right. Rather than those who you have sort of plunder material and natural resources to take back to their homelands. And so when you stay, that means you come to live on the land, which means you then have to remove the people who are already here, the indigenous people, right.
Speaker 0 00:18:41 And removal happens by force, right. It's violent. Um, and it includes genocide. Right. Um, and not only do you sort of settle on the land or move the people, but you also kind of take on indigenous customs and symbols to sort of construct the myth of who you are as a country. Right. You know? Um, and I think about that too, sometimes when I'm driving, you know, anywhere in United States and I'm looking at like place names, right. And all these place names that are indigenous, like Chicago, Illinois, Michigan. Right. Um, and then, but when now, when now they're American, right. Or they're, they're us. Um, and so, and, and that history is obscured or you race altogether, right. So this is what is settler calling you a lover. And so I wonder if you can speak to maybe, you know, tell us, you know, who is a settler, right.
Speaker 0 00:19:28 Who is indigenous, um, and what would make a Muslim right. One or the other. That's a difficult one, because to be fair, um, if, if we're looking at it in black and white terms, everyone is a settler. If you are not indigenous to this country, but at the same time, um, there's something else going on here. I mean, we are a new people there. We're not indigenous, we're not African, we're not, um, European, we're, all those things wrapped up in one. And we don't, there's nowhere else we belong because this is where we were, we were kind of, um, created if you like, if you will, like, you know, our, our ancestors converged here, whether they were indigenous or whether they were enslaved here, um, or whether they were, you know, the colonialists who came and, uh, and settled violently settled on this land. But, um, we, you know, it's a, it's a difficult question because every, I used to think about that growing up when people would say, you know, go back to Africa or if you, uh, I would think, well, how does that work when you are of mixed heritage?
Speaker 0 00:20:52 Um, so on the one hand, everyone is a settler, but on the other hand, there is a whole new population of people that was created here, um, that belong in the Americas. But I think at the same time, there are still indigenous people who live here and there are still Southern settlers who live here as well. And I think that for Muslims, it's, it's important to, to kind of create a language around that, um, and create a culture of, of doing what's best I'm doing what's right. Um, in, in terms of acknowledging the indigenous people who, who are, um, of this land and, um, you know, that ratio of, of indigenous people either through claiming, um, indigenous as a moniker, like, I, I remember a couple years back, I may have, I think I may have called you about this. Um, because I was confused and, um, my sister called me and she, we had, we had seen this, um, indigenous Muslims, uh, moniker as someone's social media handle.
Speaker 0 00:22:04 And, um, they had like a whole blog and, uh, I got excited cause I thought, oh, these are indigenous Muslims. Like, this is something that we've always wanted, you know, like, so we, we kind of dug into that and, and it was a white family who had like called themselves indigenous Muslims. And like, my, my sister reached out and she was like, oh, Hey, because she was friends with the wife. And she asked, she was like, oh, Hey, like, are you guys like indigenous as in native American? Um, and she said that she was just, you know, she acknowledged, she was just, I won't say just, but she was white. And I was so taken aback. Like, how can you, as a Muslim, you as a Muslim would do that, you know, like you would be a part of erasing the like indigenous identity, like 500 years after your ancestors arrived on the shores to do exactly that.
Speaker 0 00:23:03 Like as a muscle, it was, it was just kind of shocking to me. And, um, you know, I haven't, I haven't seen them using that, um, recently, but it was there for like, at least two years. And I don't know if they change it or if I just haven't haven't noticed it, but that was their, their social media handle, like indigenous Muslims. Wow. That, okay. So that, so interesting. Cause like, um, and I think Hazel, I know you want to jump in here. Um, I think, and I'm gonna let Hazel jump in. Cause I have a question too for high school. Cause like, you know, I think the terms are asked about these terms. I think the terms are important because they bring up the issues, which are much more important. Um, but like you said, they're also challenging, right? Because you know, I take myself as an example, I'm black, right?
Speaker 0 00:23:51 I'm the descendants of Africans and slaves in the Caribbean. Right. And I think only there, as far as I know, I don't, you know, it's possible they could have been slaves in north America, but I think only the Caribbean. And as far as I know, you know, I don't have, you know, Indian in my family, right. Like an Afro African American proverb. So I could get why someone would say I wasn't indigenous right to north America. But to call me a settler, I'm like, wait a minute. I it's really challenging for me. And I know what you're saying. Right. You're the one hand if you're not indigenous and everyone's a seller. Right. But on the other hand, like there's other things happening and your point about being a new peoples, I'm really kind of, I think intriguing way to think about that too. Right. In terms of, you know, where we fit in this conversation. So Hazel, I want to invite you jump in and sort of, you know, respond to what I think it was saying, but also like how do you fit into that conversation and how do you navigate, where do you see yourself?
Speaker 1 00:24:46 Yeah. So that story was wild. Um, um, I can understand kind of why somebody who is right would say they're an indigenous Muslim quote unquote, because of this narrative of well, you know, American Islam and I'm part of the community of American Islam and no among the first group of Muslims, whether convert or not to create this merging between culture and religion. And they suffered my conversations with white Muslims. That's, that's, I'm assuming that's where that person is coming from. I really disliked the term indigenous and I am so happy indigenous Muslim, I should say. Sorry. Um, in particularly for white people. Um, and I'm so sorry. I said decal that you had to go through that, but I'm also so glad that that person was called out slash called in, um, because it's such an eraser of the indigenous experience, uh, of the first nations people.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 I also want to really acknowledge that. I love how you said we, we all converged here. And so, you know, for myself as a Puerto Rican and Mexican growing up in Chicago, this question of, am I a subtler? And I know I'm a descendant of enslaved Africans, particularly in Puerto Rico. I know my <inaudible> and my heritage, right. But this is, this question has always haunted me. Um, and it made me question my identity. It made me despise even more colonialism and slavery and imperialism as a 13 year old. Um, and I specifically say 13 because I read this poem that just radically changed my life. And it's something that I'm grateful for. A love, bless the poets, write a love less the poets. And I do want to share the, if that is okay in Sharla, the poem is called child of the Americas by Arora Levins Morales.
Speaker 1 00:26:52 I am a child of the Americas, a light-skinned Mestiza of the Caribbean, a child of many diaspora born into this continent. As at a crossroads, I am a us Puerto Rican Jew, a product of the ghettos of New York. I have never known an immigrant and the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants. I speak English with passion. It's the tongue of my consciousness, a flashing knife blade of crystal, my tool, my craft. I am <inaudible> island grown. Spanishes my flesh ripples from my tongue lodges in my hips, the language of garlic and mangoes, the singing of poetry, the flying gestures of my hands. I am of Latino America, rooted in the history of my continent. I speak from that body. I am not African Africa is in me, but I can not return. I am not Diana. Diana is in me. There is no way back. I am not European Europe lives in me, but I have no home.
Speaker 1 00:28:05 There. I am. New history made me my first language was Spanglish. I was born at the crossroads and I am whole, for me as a 13 year old. When I read that poem, it just made me cry because I read something as I was also going through like a spiritual crisis, a 13 year old, I was born and raised Catholic. I saw myself in her words, because as you mentioned, silica, like we're a new people here living here. So for myself, I really struggled with that. And so to express myself, right? Like in high school, I had four flags hanging in my locker and you know, as body quads, our flag gotta be everywhere. So I had the four flags I had in my locker. I had the Puerto Rican flag, the Mexican flag, the Pan-African flag. And I, I did have the Spanish flag.
Speaker 1 00:29:08 I refused to put up the United States. Um, even though I was born here and, and for me, it was a way to describe where I was from and kind of make sense of my identities and all of my experiences growing up in a bi-cultural household families, I should say, but also acknowledging like Mexico is a settler colony. Spain is a colonizer, but I acknowledge it because I don't speak my native languages. I speak to colonize languages. And so for me, I just had gone through like all these different phases. I tried to connect more with my diagonal roots from Puerto Rico. Um, I actually started learning about salon and I started learning Noah a hotline, the land of the Aztecs. And then I learned I'm not actually Aztec I'm Cohen from the Rio Grande valley, right on the border of the husk and Mexico land, where last year I was able to visit and intentionally ask questions to my grandmother.
Speaker 1 00:30:04 And she said, my brother, your great uncle, you know, <inaudible> he was part of building the Rio Grande, the dam. And he died here. And right now it's a border crossing, right? So there, the border patrol is there. So I couldn't even like pause and just look at the water and the land where so many of my male relatives have died. And I also try to figure out what west African tribes my family was taken from. I would talk to my great grandmother and her father who went through enslavement in Puerto Rico. That's a long story of, you know, she was conceived when he was in his late seventies. So in his early twenties, he had experienced slavery in Puerto Rico. And then even the Spaniards, right? The spenders came into my family in the last hundred years. I mean, and that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 1 00:30:57 And so for me, I've constantly struggled as you also mentioned, sod, like, am I a subtler? I'm not right. Like I'm from this land, but which, which lands, like I don't know where I belong and even looking and trying to research and, and visiting places. Right. For me, I do feel more at home in Puerto Rico. Um, and to me just could be my politics of the liberation of Puerto Rico. Cause we're still a colony. Um, but this is something that I've, I've constantly struggled with and even being a visible Muslim woman, you know, and the assumptions people make of me, right. Just because I cover and not knowing like all this history that I carry with me. So this is something I struggle with navigating. This is something that I teach my children on their multiple identities and how they can live their fullest, um, as young Muslim boys and in Charlotte turning into Muslim men.
Speaker 1 00:31:59 And one thing that I really appreciate about this question as well is there's this saying from a memo, Cazale where he says those who know themselves know God, and even in the core and a love reminds us that he blesses people with knowing themselves in intern getting to know him. And so for, for us to have these conversations, I pray that there's this blessing in really digging deep into our hearts and being conscious of the land that we live on as a way to inshallah draw closer to Allah, but also like do something about it. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:32:35 Q4 that Hazel, you know, you both speak to the idea of us being new people, which is powerful, but a version of that is also used by the settler state to justify its existence here. I'm thinking about melting bots. So that brings me to my next question. Have you seen settler logic shape Muslim communities? For example, I was listening to an native American podcast and they were talking about how the term pioneer is a settler term, which makes sense when you think about it, but it's also a term we use on our elders. So, so the PA, okay, I'm going to start with pioneer because, you know, that's the term that is used in our community for the people who, um, opened up, uh, Islam for their, their community. There are people like there. Um, and, um, so I want to be, I think we should be very careful about canceling terms because it's, it's a word and it has a meaning.
Speaker 0 00:33:40 And one meaning is a one who first settles in a territory, but another meaning is a person or a group that originates or helps open up a new line of thought or activity, um, or new method, uh, or technical development. And I think that is the meaning of pioneer in our community. It's not someone who like settled into a territory. And I do understand that there are triggers for communities who may hear the term settler. Uh, I mean, sorry, um, pioneer as something different, but every word has like a multitude of meanings. And I, I don't see a connection to our use of the term pioneer and like settler colonialism. Um, I think it's the other meaning, which is it, it, it, it fits perfectly for what they did, um, and who they were for us. Um, and I don't like, I don't see another, I mean, it's been used for the past, like probably 70 years, at least in my community.
Speaker 0 00:34:54 We just cook celebrate celebrated 70 years. I don't see it going anywhere, but I also don't see it as, I don't see it in the same way that, you know, in the sense of, you know, the first, the connection to settler colonialism. Um, so I don't really have an issue with that word, but I do have an issue with other forms of settler, colonialism, um, being used religiously, um, against, um, Muslims in general, um, in, in America. Um, I remember the first time I met a Lakota Muslim at ISNA and I was so excited, like somebody was like excited to introduce me to this person and I was super excited to meet her. And so when I did, we were talking and I was, you know, just trying to find out, you know, what, whether she's number one, whether she was the only Muslim in her family, whether she was married, whether she was, you know, had children like what their, their family life was like.
Speaker 0 00:36:03 And it dawned on me when having this conversation, that she had a colonized idea of religion. Like she had come from a Christianized Lakota family who had rejected Lakota spirituality initially, and then merged that with being Muslim. And so I couldn't relate to her on that. Like we could relate on the fact that we're both, you know, like indigenous Muslims, but her way of viewing Islam was like a co-opted Arab way of being Muslim. And it was, it's sad. It's sad in me. And I remember talking to my aunt about it when I came home. And if you you'll notice that my aunt comes up a lot, I talked to her and she said, you know, siddiqa like what happened to our people is tragic. You know, like what happened to our people here? The first wave of colonists that came, came to the east coast, obliterated us and everything that was on the east coast, oh, the all the east coast tribes are, are scrambling to figure out, to remember or find someone who can hold onto our traditions or who can teach us our traditions.
Speaker 0 00:37:27 So, um, we, on the east coast, like thankfully through the, through the American Indian movement learn traditions from the Lakota. So this woman, that's why I was so enamored. Like I thought I'd be enamored by her because I thought she had this like great way of blending Islam and, and, and, um, indigenous culture. Um, but you know, we, a lot of us are a broken people and, and that same settler colonialism or that, um, same ideology is used when spreading Islam here in America, where one culture dominates and their idea of being Muslim dominates. Um, and it leaves no room for creating an like an authentic Muslim identity or cultural identity, um, for people who are not of the dominant culture that is, you know, spreading this ideology and that person, the person that I spoke to having to, you know, learn her slam through that, that, uh, that kind of ideology.
Speaker 0 00:38:44 And it was, it was kind of disappointing for me. Um, and I, I thought then, like, there's something that we should be doing. I mean, I was probably around 14 at the time, but I was thinking, God, there's something that we should be doing to, um, to introduce indigenous people, to Islam in a way that is like not going to erase who they are as a culture, like not going to raise it. And at the same time I had this kind of, I know this is a, it's a bit of a, an issue for me, this idea of, um, missionary ism is also an issue for me. Like I haven't ever been able to kind of, um, reconcile how missionaries typically erase, um, or replace the, the culture that, you know, they're coming to quote unquote, like teach and, and across incise to either Christianity a slam some sort of, you know, mainstream religion. But I didn't, I couldn't reconcile being a part of that. So I, I, I think there, there is a need for a conversation around that.
Speaker 1 00:40:10 So the, the question of to stop using the terms, indigenous and pioneers, I, I really appreciate the nuance of the definition for pioneers. Um, on, I also have never looked at when I hear the word pioneers within our community. I immediately immediately think this is a black Muslim community, or this must be just predominantly black Muslims. Um, and I, to look at it as a Sedler, uh, definition is, uh, never crossed my mind. Um, now the term indigenous Muslim though, or indigenous Islam, I have always had an issue with that because that feels like an eraser of first nations and indigenous peoples of turtle island. Um, and I see, I can understand, I guess, as it being a qualifier for stolen people on stolen land, enslaved Africans that are here that are, were brought or forced over. Um, but again, just like Sabika mentioned the story of like the right Muslim that used the term indigenous, like, no, you can't, you can't use that term.
Speaker 1 00:41:28 Um, so I, I do have an issue with that in particular. Now the settler, as you ask sod within our Muslim communities, like, I mean, it's, it's an oxymoron. This is not, this is land acknowledgement and, and respecting the people of the land is something that is within our Islamic history really briefly. I want to mention the story of the Halifa I'm going to AMR Eben Abdelaziz he had moved, he had moved people, you know, uh, this was before he became, um, Khalifa. So he was talking to the people just talking to the elders of the community. And one elder had said, oh, you know, 80, just in conversation. Oh, 80 years ago, when you Muslim said that you were coming, y'all arrived a couple of days too early, I'm going to <inaudible> is like struck. And he's like, excuse me. I was like, yeah, you all arrived a couple days early.
Speaker 1 00:42:25 I mean, I'm the love, we're glad you're here, but you know, we're letting you know, in that moment, he told all the people who had either migrated or the descendants of that was like, we gotta go, we gotta pack up a, we gotta go. And all the Muslims packed up and started going, even though some of the people that were there had already converted, but the people who had migrated, so they started, they're starting to leave. And the elders, some like, you know, the elders are in shock. Like what, where are you going? Like, well, no, we broke our promise. Even though this was 80 years ago, as Muslims, we broke our promise. We came too early, we got to go. And the elders, you know, they asked permission and they're talking and they, you know, they, the, the people, the original people of the land were like, no, please do not leave.
Speaker 1 00:43:09 Do not leave it. It's fine please. But that right there was bravery. And that right there shows us that it's within our tradition within our Sonic history overall, that there is disrespect for the original people of the land. And another thing that I really appreciate about the Halifa was that lands that were conquered through victories. He refused to divide up the land among the soldiers, because he, there was this fear. He did not want the concentration of different lands within a very few hands. And that goes into like land rights ownership, or land rights and whatnot. But again, there's this notion of keep the land within the state, keep the land to those that it belonged to and work together. Right. Um, for everybody, for the common good. And so I really appreciate that, you know, that story because we are not meant to, um, ignore the people that originally come here and it goes back to ignore the people that were originally here, because it goes back to the first question of why Medina on turtle island, what is our responsibility? All right.
Speaker 0 00:44:26 Um, so thank you so much, Hazel for that. Um, you know, this indigenous, um, term, I actually had a conversation recently with the mountaintop of the Rashid, who is the man of the mass of a stomach brotherhood and Harlem New York. Um, and he was responding to an article I had written on sapele square about this question, like the, I call it the politics of calling ourselves indigenous. And, uh, one of the things he said to me, he says, you know, it was important to understand, or to recognize that the use of this term has maybe many histories. And so one way, which I hadn't thought of, I hadn't heard before, but he was saying, you know, part of the ways that black people and black Muslims in particular are using this term is in a recognition right. Of relationships before Columbus, between Africans and the indigenous people of the Americas.
Speaker 0 00:45:18 And so that, there's a to that, so that the kind of use of that term is actually not meant to race, right. The indigenous people of north America or the Americas, but rather to identify a relationship between these people before the Europeans, which I thought was an interesting layer, right. To the conversation. I mean, everyone doesn't have to agree with that, but I think it's important, um, to note that, and also in talking with him as well, um, just about the ways in which it's sort of in the 20th century, at least, right. The additional ways in which black holes communities have been quite, um, uh, in black Muslim communities is black communities, particularly sort of black revolutionary communities have been quite aware of, right. The relationship that we should thinking about our relationship to indigenous communities in the United States. Right. And thinking about the alignments in the solidarities, right.
Speaker 0 00:46:13 Between these two communities, um, and, and, and these questions of land. So I think so I think, so we're not gonna get in that today. We don't have time for that, but I think, um, I wanted to mention that alternative perspective, but also this idea that I think, you know, black communities and black Muslim communities, um, have been, I think, navigating this, um, in a very kind of, um, overt way that maybe may not be the case, or that may be from what I understand, it's not the case that we think of other Muslim communities in the United States. Um, and part of the whole point of that, right, is that, and this whole conversation that I want us to have today is that, you know, we have to understand who we are to each other, so we can be better to each other, right. Like the cross says, and, and not in a kind of kumbaya kind of way, but in a way that involves this kind of truth-telling reparations and we conciliation.
Speaker 0 00:47:07 And so, so I want to sort of end with you and I want to end with you, and I want to ask you just, you know, someone who, again, you'll come from the position of being black and Muslim, you know, w when we're thinking about this question of being Muslim on turtle island, right? What, what, what would you, for me, I would love to see, uh, African American Muslims or black Muslims or Muslims in America in general, actually, um, acknowledging that this is land, that doesn't does not belong to, to us. And even for indigenous people, we don't believe that this land belongs to us either. Um, but acknowledging that there were people here before you immigrated here, like I, I had this issue come up for me a lot, like where, you know, we're asked to champion causes that are, you know, thousands of miles away, you know, and not that we should not be championing, championing those causes, but they're causes right here.
Speaker 0 00:48:16 Those same causes. Like if, if you draw a parallel to Palestine and the people who are right here having their land taken away right now, and earlier, you mentioned the Mashpee Wampanoag, um, Hazel ma a very good friend of mine was the one who was working on that case for the Mashpee Wampanoag, um, to get their land and trust, um, so that they're able to have their own sovereign territory. Um, but this was, I mean, what this is this year, uh, well, not 2021, but in 2020, they were still fighting for the right to have sovereignty over their own land. And the United States government at the time was still trying to take it away. And, you know, the Keystone pipeline, um, the water is life movement movement, um, that, you know, has been a huge issue for native native people. Um, the water rights movement and, and being able to, um, to say what happens to have, have authority to stay, what happens on their land and to reject, um, drilling and, and, um, things that would cause negative environmental impact on their land to be able to reject those, those, um, those things.
Speaker 0 00:49:45 And, and I feel like Muslims should be championing those causes. And I, I, I know that we were, there was a huge, um, you know, uh, cry from the Muslim community at that time to support, um, the, the people who were on the front lines fighting against the Keystone pipeline pipeline. Um, but there, that needs to be, those need to be our causes. Um, and also, you know, I was, I was watching on, um, Instagram, of course, this is, you know, where we see a lot of news these days, but this, there was a celebrity, um, an African-American activist who had posted something on her page about a Lakota elder, um, on the Rosebud reservation who needed help because he had 19 people living in his very small house that was, um, they had holes in the roof. They had, um, no heat in North Dakota.
Speaker 0 00:50:54 Um, and all of these people relied on him and he's the spiritual leader of his family. So he's not able to, um, work or earn money for his family. Um, and so I would like to see Muslims championing those causes for me until native people have, um, the same freedom and justice and Liberty and economic stability. Um, as other communities in America, I feel like that's always going to be a cause that we need to be championing. That's going to be, uh, like, uh, something that we will have to answer for, you know, what did you do for them? What did you do for the people who were, who, whose land you lived on? Um, like how did you give back and how did you empower them? Yeah, thank you so much, um, today for that. Um, and do you know, I think, uh, you know, this, we really need to have this one podcast episode, is that enough time, um, to really kind of, um, really get into this, but, um, I'm really happy that both you and Hazel, or joined us on the square today to begin to sort of, you know, begin to open up the conversation.
Speaker 0 00:52:13 Cause I think you had mentioned this earlier, this is a conversation that is long overdue and it's not just about talking the talk right. But also there's work to be done. Um, so thank you both. And, um, before we, before we close today, so we have a question we're calling you and we have a question going to all our get guests to answer. And so I'm going to ask you first Hazel, and then we'll go to, um, siddiqa. So the question is if black a slam had a theme song, what would it be?
Speaker 1 00:52:42 So if Baca slam had a theme song, I had to channel my children's energy and think of all the requests that they make, uh, for me to play for them. So I'm going to have to say, Julio is smiles 99 names. My sons absolutely love that song, but also it's the way that he translates the names and attributes of a law that make it absolutely relatable. Uh, for example, I love when he says L jelly, the majestic, you are the fixer of messes.
Speaker 0 00:53:17 Thank you. And so they got, so if black of five had a theme song or what's your black Muslim theme song. So, um, growing up, as I said before, my, my mom was in a singing group along with another other, um, Muslim sisters and brothers, um, from our community. And there's one song that hands down, no matter what it, it's the song that we always ask them to sing. If there's, you know, like a reunion or if the older community like the pioneers get together. Um, uh, and it's called the man. And I know that there was like, I remember growing up, there was once we encountered other black Muslim communities, that the term <inaudible> became a point of contention. Um, but, uh, the song is called the Lillian man. And it was written by a brother, Derek, I mean, from our community and my mother sang the lead. And, um, she said, this is the song she sang to Muhammad Ali when he came to our native song.
Speaker 2 00:54:24 <inaudible> Bilali and, uh, you a man without a name, but yoga. Lovely. Just the same as a, the man you stood for many nations, tall, are your perseverance proves it all you live again. How could you, after all you've been through, once you gave up a ride now, just to me, it gave you will to a law and let him show <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:55:18 To live right now. Thank you for tuning into this episode of on the square, real talk on race and Islam slam, and the Americas especial podcast brought to you by SAP, a little square at the Madame. Thanks sir. I guest Hazel Gomez and siddiqa Sharif fifth men. You can find more information about what we discuss, including links and more by visiting sapele square.com/on the square or the maiden.com/podcast. Our theme music was created by fanatic on beats.
