Speaker 0 00:00:02 Archives are often portrayed as a dusty vault. This myth exists because historians let it exist, but it is being pushed back upon by archivists, the people who have the historical and organizational expertise that makes archives easy to navigate. Today we not only get to hear from an archivist, but specifically one who works with digital archives. Welcome to Knowledge and Its Producers, a limited series from the May Dunn, produced by me and <inaudible>. In each episode, we will be talking to people who are at the forefront of knowledge production, typically away from the traditional educational power structures. We'll be talking to people who curate, who edit, who run research centers, who write and more. My field is Islamic studies and we'll be talking to people who fit into the study of Islam and the Muslim majority world. That doesn't mean they'll be Muslims themselves, just means we don't have perfect terms for describing this big intersecting world.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 At least not yet. The goal is to get a wide variety of people talking about different ways of accessing history ideas and more to uplift the people we're interviewing and to inspire you. So today we're talking to Jasmine Solomon. Jasmine started her work on the guest of Photography Archive, now part of Emotive in 2016. Prior to that, she worked as an archivist at the German Archeological Institute in Cairo, beginning in 2013 and formally was a business development professional working largely in the Middle East. Her work focuses on collection, appraisal and management, cataloging and descriptive vocabularies, website, user experience and user interface design and social media outreach. She collaborates with the AMO team to oversee the physical and digital collections and works closely with the NYU Digital Library Technology Services team and the website teams at nyu, Shanghai and Abu Dhabi, as well as with the general public as they use the collections at New York University Abu Dhabi.
Speaker 0 00:02:00 She has presented her work, Athar Art Foundation and the British Library. She endeavors create archives that are inclusive and accessible to all in their design and function and considerate of socioeconomic status and physical ability. She's also the founder of rep cinema.com, which highlights repertory cinema screenings in the UAE in London. And highlights of her work can be
[email protected]. So normally I ask people what their favorite snack or breakfast or, you know, tool is, but I think I'd rather direct it towards something we both shared in the past because we are quite good friends, which is <unk>
Speaker 1 00:02:48 Well, you, you helped me along making my own first batch of car, which is probably not something I should admit to only doing in my late thirties. It's a joy. It's, it's one of those things that you can fairly easily obtain, pretty much I think, wherever you are. And it's kinda a, it's like it's one of those nice little, bring a bit of home with you recipes.
Speaker 0 00:03:13 It's this global beloved red drink made of flowers. It's just, it's, it's just, it's it. I one day wanna dig into the globality of it. What's your favorite way to have it?
Speaker 1 00:03:25 Well, you gave me the tip of hitting peaches inside. So when it's steeping and that's not something, I don't think I'd ever I, I'd ever encountered it with that before or not, or not knowing me. And it gives it a sort of a really lovely rounded deep flavor and it's just lovely.
Speaker 0 00:03:44 I think I just had good peach. It was during the first like, batch of lockdowns and I think I had some nice peaches and I was just like, I need some excitement today. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:03:57 Let's, let's just be outrageous and put some peaches in <inaudible>. Um, anyway, it worked <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:04:05 I also was just, I think I was inspired by the idea of sangria, which I can't drink cause I don't drink alcohol. And I was just like, oh, it's red <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:04:15 It's red and fruity. I also kind of love how it, you know, it dies, everything it touches. And so you get a kitchen and hand just, just dye red for about three days.
Speaker 0 00:04:27 There is a Palestinian sort of anti-fat fashion brand, uh, or collective. It's a collective. Um, and they recently did the line where they dyed some jackets with natural dyes and I think one of them was hibiscus and it, it came out to this lovely nice kind of, uh, pastel color.
Speaker 1 00:04:49 Oh really? Yeah. Okay. So now I obviously came to go shopping after we finish
Speaker 0 00:04:56 <laugh>. They're lovely. They use dead stock. They have these collectives that they work with, um, and family owned businesses so that they're really cool. Um, yeah, so let's get into the meat of things, but before I do that, I kind of need to say we're quite good friends. There might be a lot of giggling and a lot of wink wink moments, but we'll try, try to keep
Speaker 1 00:05:18 Them tune. We're trying to be serious,
Speaker 0 00:05:20 Sacred, and we're never serious. <laugh> <laugh>. So you are one of these people and I actually think there's quite a lot of people like that in our fields. I know a lot of conservators who are like this to sort of come through other disciplines or other, you know, fields of business. How did you come to archives as a profession?
Speaker 1 00:05:41 It was a combination of a few things. Skills and passions. I think combined. I'm an organizer. I love documentation. I think my first archive job began in 2013 and I was also at the time working on a project that I was interviewing and documenting some of the kiosks and the kiosk owners and workers in Cairo. And so I think I've always wanted to document, wanted to kind of record different histories and it sort of slowly came together. But I think I probably started unknowingly very early in life. My, um, my grandfather was a, uh, collector of coins and he did some work for charities. So they, you know, charities received donations, voluntary donations in numerous different currencies. And so he would help them sort organize their donations. They obviously didn't have the capacity themselves and so he sometimes, you know, when he'd come and visit, bring a sort of sack of coins and we would tip them out on the dining table.
Speaker 1 00:06:47 I'm sure my parents were delighted. We'd sit there and sort of sort them. We'd think about, I mean, you know, I was probably, I think 10 or 12, but sort of age and we'd think about all the different ways to categorize them. So, uh, I dunno, language group, um, continents, the age maybe of the coins. Cuz occasionally you'd get things thrown in that were, um, older don denominations like not in use. And I think, I dunno, it really stayed with me that activity and thinking about all the different ways that not only you ca categorize, but sort of access something through. Because then, you know, you look at the sort of heads of leaders or monarchs on there and then what was going on in that country politically at that time. So I think that it somehow started very early for me. Take
Speaker 0 00:07:36 Us back to 2013. What, what happened then? What was sort of that moment of transition? Where were you working besides this kiosk documentation project, which I love by the way, that's so near and dear to my heart.
Speaker 1 00:07:48 <laugh>, thank you. Um, I had been working in numerous different positions. A lot of sort of business development, sales, marketing I'd found skills in, in myself in, in sort of project management and sort of juggling of lots of different tasks. I think that's the thing that probably all those, all those positions had in common, especially working for kinda startup entities. But I hadn't really found sort of the direction to put those skills and that energy into. And so I'd moved back to Cairo. I had an earlier stint in Cairo and moved back to Cairo after some time working business development in Dubai. And I'd really wanted to start this kiosk project for quite a long time. But I wanted also to kind of formalize that work and learn more about kinda categorization, documentation and also, you know, kind how can we think about access to those things and projects once they're, once they're complete or underway. And the position came up at the German archeological institutes and initially it was just to sort of look at scanning their photography collections. And so I got the position there and we also, while that began, we started to look at how to categorize those. And so those skills I think kind of all came into play and I have never, never looked back.
Speaker 0 00:09:07 <laugh>. And your current position, do you wanna tell us a bit about them?
Speaker 1 00:09:11 Sure. I joined, uh, a casaa, the photography archive at NYU Abuja six years ago. Uh, this week actually a casaa is now a project within a wider center, which is center for the Study of Art. And so I now take care of two major collections. So the a Casaa photography archives as well as the Arab Art collections, which are, are sort of, uh, growing, growing by the day. So yes, my work has in the last couple of years become two-pronged and for two very different collections.
Speaker 0 00:09:46 What I find really fascinating about this is the fact that you did develop those project management skills. It, it's just funny how these all reverberates, you develop them, but you develop them through something that you actually have that inclination towards at a very early age. Like you can see these very strong threads running through your life's tapestry. And I can imagine that you are very good at understanding the tasks of everyone who works with you in order to best perform your role, but also because you do have this bird's eye view of the collection as well as sort of digging into the minutia. Who is your archival team? Do you have developers? Do you have other archivists who does, does digitization? What always frustrates me, and I think you and I talk about this all the time, is people think, oh, digitization, you can, no, uh, I can just put everything that I took from an archive online. Yeah. And know what, it'll be fine. You know, I'm not like defecating all over the archival workers or writing or, and it doesn't matter that there's no number on anything
Speaker 1 00:10:51 <laugh>. Oh gosh. It's, yeah, it's really, it's really, really tough as an archivist or any kind of archival worker to communicate the amount of processes involved, the amount of labor involved. This happens every now and then. I, you know, we see some rather uninformed article and then there you see the, a little Twitter storm afterwards. You know, usually it's by a historian who's upset that, you know, not absolutely everything is digitized. Yeah, that's really tough. And archival labor is multifaceted. So our core team, until less than a year ago, was really two people, myself and, uh, Jonathan be who leads in the digitization, but also digital processing and archiving. However, we work very closely together and a lot of our work is, you know, collaborative and discussion based. The last sort of six, seven months an assistant archivist has joined the team. However, that's only our core team.
Speaker 1 00:11:53 The wider team is much more invisible. And I think you, I mean you have a partial insight to this because we worked, uh, together on the Arabic website. So there are website developers who work within the wider NYU globally. So they're actually based NYU Shanghai, um, I gonna mention them by name cause they're amazing and using, and Amy who, and they work on multiple projects across nyu. So they're also, they're not dedicated to us. So they, they, you know, their work is also kinda, they're pulled in many different directions. However, they are there in sort of in the background all the time. We work with digital library technology services at nyu, um, who primarily work on the digital archiving. So everything that gets digitized at NYU Abu Dhabi is, is sent there, all of the file reviewing, you know, kind of stripping of any extra metadata, ensuring there's nothing in the files that might be corrupted, like corrupt them later on.
Speaker 1 00:12:56 And obviously backing up on numerous servers, et cetera. All of that happens there. As well as the matching up of digital objects to the catalog records that we create. So again, a whole, a whole team that service multiple archives, uh, and projects across nyu, student assistance for us, for many archives that's obviously, uh, interns, sometimes paid, sometimes unpaid, very often unpaid I would say, which is I think common across kinda gallery's libraries, archives and museums, which is a problem in itself and in an offshoot with this conversation. But they create a lot of the catalog entries and, you know, it's something that, especially with how stretched we are with the growing collections, that, that they really are integral. And of course whenever there's any community engagement, which I'm very pleased, is definitely increasing across archives. However, you know, if you're having a workshop, if people are giving you feedback or saying, you know, I recognize this building, I know who this person is, et cetera, that's also kinda, although not technically part of an archival team, they are contributing to, to the archive. So they would say those are the main elements.
Speaker 0 00:14:05 Yeah. And I think it's a good moment to sort of take a pause and say that archives are not just for academics or even for, just for journalists. I think journalists do tend to make some use of archives to some extent mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, which they're, they're for everyone and everyone can use them to look up things that, you know, they don't have to look up family histories. I think that's what people think of. Yes. You can also use images for graphic design. If all the rights are in place, you can use them to inspire a novel or a video game. And as long as there's proper attribution and you've done your, your checks and your
Speaker 1 00:14:42 Absolutely, there's no, there's no proper use of an archive.
Speaker 0 00:14:48 Yeah. There's,
Speaker 1 00:14:49 There's proper, there's proper, I think there's like proper, uh, you know, accreditation, there's obviously proper citation, but I think you're completely right. There's this idea concept that they're just sort of a family histories. I remember about I think 2018 there was a study undertaken in the UK across hundreds of archives, uh, in terms of their user base, the demographics. And I think they found that this is from memory approximately 95 uh, percent of users were white and between I think 45 and 65 years old.
Speaker 0 00:15:27 Sorry.
Speaker 1 00:15:28 That's a depressing statistic.
Speaker 0 00:15:31 Well, I, I think the other thing I kinda wanna highlight because we are saying, oh well you need proper attribution and citation is that academics don't get this right 90% of the time. So when we say that, it's not like we're saying you need to behave like a historian. We're saying you need to just give credit and also make it easy for someone to go find that image. Yes. If they want to use it for their own purposes. We're not saying you have to use, you have to put the shelf mark or the item number.
Speaker 1 00:15:59 Oh no.
Speaker 0 00:15:59 Because like it needs to be proper. No, we want people to be able to recreate the sort of experiment if they can, they wanna be able to go back and see it. And it's also a nice little nod to all the work you guys do in organizing these things. I feel like I'm always telling people it's not, it's not like you're like typing away. I mean, you are typing away at a spreadsheet, you're typing away a very sophisticated spreadsheet that is not just you describing things. I'm always just impressed by how much research you do because you need that to properly describe and place the image. So you make use of all of these tools and I really would would love it if you could just walk us through the process of cataloging in an image and what it takes for you to make it findable, because that's so hard because people are looking for so many different things.
Speaker 0 00:16:47 So just an example, I work a lot on the history of material objects, but mostly books. Most recently I was looking for something on jewelry and being able to use the subject tags that Jasmine developed was really the most useful for me. And it makes the image findable, but even things like a printing press, like Jasmine has to be able to a printing press, don't think most people can do <laugh> and then put it in the description and tag it and then be able to, to recognize different types of printing presses and roads. So walk us through this whole process of historical inquiry and eventually cataloging and publishing that description of an image.
Speaker 1 00:17:28 I think you, you just touched on something which actually, um, informs all of this, which is recognizing of things. And that's always going to be a huge struggle, especially, and most archives are, are very understaffed and you know, we simply can't have sort of subject specialists for every area that the collections cover. I mean, I'm sure that I must have cataloged photographs where there is a sort of notable person in there, you know, a a politician for example, that I haven't recognized because, you know, the collections go from sort of very roughly Morocco in the west to kind of Iran in the east, um, and have pretty much everything in between. It's an impossible scope of, of knowledge and obviously because we have to limit the time we research or we'd only be cataloging, you know, a handful of photos a day. That is something where, you know, we have to remain open and we have to do what we're talking about before, which is community engagement and also just listen.
Speaker 1 00:18:27 So we've been corrected before. I, I mean I wasn't delighted that we got the, the name of the person wrong, but I was delighted to be, to be corrected and that these people offered their knowledge to us to do so. And so I think that when we think about subject tags and why, part of the reason I developed such an extensive vocabulary is because there will always be things that we miss. But if I can sort of tag as many elements as as possible and give as many avenues as possible to get into those elements, then it creates a much higher chance of people finding what they're looking for. Sorry, I didn't start at the beginning though. So kind of once the, once the catalog record, um, is created, so the scope of the collection described any kind of biographical or historical information recorded in in notes.
Speaker 1 00:19:17 I mean, I would say that that's, you know, the basis of everything else. I think I would describe it actually a bit like sort of museum placards, not necessarily labels, but, but you know, paragraphs that, you know, when you walk into a, uh, a room in the gallery or museum and it tells you in a couple of paragraphs in a sort of enticing and quick overview with accessible language, what you're about to encounter. And you know, it then leads you to, okay, do I want to kind of go further into this collection or, you know, physical room or archival collection or not? And so I try to think about that as kinda the entry point. But particularly with the CASAS collections, you don't, and because of the way the the website and search are, you often go directly to the photographs. So in cataloging we do item level of those.
Speaker 1 00:20:07 We do have protocols that are established for casa and I'm currently developing them for Alma's Arab art collections, which are quite different. They're quite different because they are mainly textual documents, for example, exhibition catalogs, et cetera, which are far, you know, kind of far simpler descriptions. Whereas photography is very challenging and one has to constantly question whether one is being subjective. So we try to review all descriptions, particularly for subjectivity. And then yes, each, each photograph is subject tagged. I would say on average five to 10 subjects per photograph. I could, I talk a long time about this, I don't wanna take up too long, but basically all of our subject tags are under constant review. And so like with all language, language changes over time and we review them, we edit them, we merge them, we delete them, and we also undertake description where things we consider things need to be corrected.
Speaker 0 00:21:06 Is, is there a specific example that you can give us of reparative description?
Speaker 1 00:21:11 So for example, assumptions of couples family units. Um, that was something which when I joined, I kind of undertook quite early on in terms of reviewing the, the objects that had already been cataloged gender assumptions, assumptions about clothing being formal or traditional. The use of that word in particular underwent a lot of discussion meetings that's sort of now being removed and we use regional or slash national dress. So yeah, those are, those are few examples.
Speaker 0 00:21:45 So I suppose my question to you is a question of what you make accessible to the public. Are there cases where something comes in and you don't have to give a specific example where you do think mm, I don't know if this should be made accessible to the public for a variety of reasons? And sort of how do you navigate that in terms of making things accessible and wanting to be open? Like that desire to be open, but occasionally finding something and wondering can this hurt people or, um, would this have adverse effects? Like this is a balance that I think we all really find really hard. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:22:24 It's really hard and I often think there is no truly right answer to, to many of these questions and, and situations that come up in terms of being selective about what is brought in or housed in the archive. That's a necessity just from, you know, physical space restrictions, budgetary restrictions, uh, you know, collection policy, et cetera. But you know, that in itself has, I think very often led to archival institutions building sort of white created or related materials. So I think that the key to all of, I mean, the answer basically to all of this is that all these processes should be as collaborative as possible. I don't think they should ever be one person's decision, no matter how experienced or senior they are. I think that we all need to listen to different voices. We've only ever not shown something to the public. I think it was once from our own decision, it was, I mean it's a photograph that was taken in a very clearly personal moment.
Speaker 1 00:23:29 The person was wearing their underwear, they were in a bedroom and it just was absolutely not a photo that they would've ever intended to be public. And whereas you, I absolutely could argue that for most of the photographs, uh, you know, kind of vernacular family photography, I think that that argument is very different for sort of a family gathering around his dinner table. And so I think that is one that we collectively took the decision that we would not publish. And I think that kinda any, if you want to sort of term it, censoring should be focused on protecting people. And even if we think that those people, you know, just by dating an object are, are no longer living, their descendants could suffer or be persecuted as a result. You know, for example, their political activities going on demonstrations, that kind of thing. So that's, those are just some areas in which I would at least consider. Um,
Speaker 0 00:24:25 I admire your sensitivity to these, these people from our histories and their descendants. And I think it's reflected in the way that you're constantly revising and changing your protocols because I think that what that tells you is on a very basic level that the archive isn't fixed mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that the archive is shaped by people. And that in essence, and I know this is like a bit of a slogan and a tagline that people put on totes and things like that, but <laugh>, that the archive isn't neutral.
Speaker 1 00:24:54 I already knew what you were gonna say. So
Speaker 0 00:24:58 We, disclosure you gave to me,
Speaker 1 00:25:01 I gave you a with that on I stamp by my decision.
Speaker 0 00:25:06 I admired a tote that she had had, I think it was the first time we met in person with this on it. But yeah, I think I, I think it's really important to think of these things as not changing. And that's another thing is that it's, it's also trying to convince people that history itself is not neutral, because that's written on our interpretation mm-hmm. <affirmative> of, of what you, you put therefore us. But I, I wanna come back to this idea of the audience mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because we keep touching on it and I wanna bring it all together. I, I wanna know what audiences you reach, how you engage them. You've already spoken a bit about this, but I also wanna know what audiences you want to reach with Hack Gesa.
Speaker 1 00:25:43 Oh, I mean, it's like something shining ting at the top of a unreachable mountain. I mean, it's like all of them, all of the people. So as per, you know, kinda the statistic that we talked about before, I mean that obviously relates to physical archives in the uk but it doesn't mean that just because we have a very developed digital archive that necessarily everybody will even come across it. If they come across it, will they be able to navigate it? And so in terms of audience I want to reach in particular, I would say those who can't travel with ease, whether that's due to Visa financial mobility restrictions, I also want to reach those that maybe don't expect to see themselves, their communities reflected in, in an archive. I think that we've got an enormous amount to, to do. I mean for me it's, it's difficult cause the only, the only way, apart from anyone that physically vi visits us, um, the only way I can really tell who's engaging with the collections online is obviously kind of through analytics, um, of the website.
Speaker 1 00:26:57 And those are very limited. And of course they can be affected by VPNs, et cetera. So they're only ever sort of a general view of, of who's, who's accessing the collections. But something i, I try to do, and, you know, we work together on the Arabic version of our website is, is really think about language across the board. So not just in in in descriptions and and subject tags, but across the website in descriptive text. Um, all of that should be not just accessible in terms of, you know, kind of clean, concise language, but so, you know, kind of punchy and maybe fun to read. I want school children, school-aged children to, to be able to just arrive on the site and dig around into, into the collections. Um, so I mean, I suppose the, yeah, the answer is really all of them. And I think that there's a great deal of work to be done.
Speaker 0 00:27:58 I I I wish that we could put you in charge of all of the archives globally. Yeah. That would be a very stressful job. So maybe I would not wish it on anyone, but I wanna to kinda turn, if, if you're comfortable with this to another project you have on the side that really understands the need to accumulate information in a way that's also accessible to people who think differently. So do you wanna talk to us about Rep Cinema
Speaker 1 00:28:26 <laugh>? Sure. Thank you for ringing up. It began as a little pet project. It's grown a little bit. My passion in my, in my free time is watching Repertory film and I visit London usually twice a year. And so I began a spreadsheet for initially my personal use of all of the repertory film screenings that are happening in London over a period of time. So a month for example, I started it because the kindest, I dunno how I, these and the kindest way possible, many websites, I mean particularly kind of events, websites of any kind are really horrible in terms of their uniformity or of the overall user experience. Um, so you know, they'll have a huge banner image and then tiny text buried at the bottom with the actual information you need very often, you know, the when, where, how of, of an event. And so I would go through these cinema websites and just get so frustrated.
Speaker 1 00:29:32 And we thought about this in developing Newcastle website too, which is the overall user experience, but in particular in terms of neuro neurodiversity, um, and things that go along with it, like sensory processing disorders. So having kinda visual distractions or texts that isn't uniform is, is, is just a nightmare. So that's sort of what begun the work. I then shared it with a few people who were very appreciative of it, and now it's the website that people can subscribe to. It's just rep cinema.com. It's focused on London, I guess I hope one day to extend to other cities. And so I basically list every single rep screening that's happening across London with the date, with the cinema, obviously the title, whether it's going to be on film or digital, and if it's repeated, so if it's, if it's gonna be screened on another date and with a hyperlink to the ticketing website. And so then usually I guess on the average now around 400 odd films, uh, a month across about 25 cinemas, but I saw them in Google Sheets, so they are already prepared and people can view them anyway that, that works best for them.
Speaker 0 00:30:51 And I'm guessing a lot of your, like a lot of this practice and the sensitivity to the way people process information is also reflected in I casaa and kind of how you approach that as well, right?
Speaker 1 00:31:03 Absolutely. I mean, if you know, sorry, I think we should tell the audience, so Nada worked with me closely on the, um, Arabic version of a casaa org. And primarily you were looking with me at the user experience, you know, where buttoned were, whether they were highlighted, you know, how they reacted when you click them, where icons were positioned on the page, tooltip, that kinda thing, to, to enhance the search experience. And you know, we collaborated very closely on that, but you also did a read for, you know, archival and academic text in Arabic and obviously put, put a lot of the, the actual content, it's a WordPress. So working together on that and actually, you know, having someone as a kind of intellectual partner was an amazing work experience for me. And you know, we know one person can sort of think of all the things. And so whereas, you know, I might be focused on particularly kinda visual elements. I think you helped me really think about kind of the overall user path and in particular where, you know, a lot of people do translation of their website without thinking about the different experience in particular with Arabic being, you know, right to left. So yeah, I think that's really something that is also, again, like everything else continuing piece of work, it doesn't cease. And I, I've probably got about five outstanding to do improvements on the website. I think,
Speaker 0 00:32:39 I think we, we all learned so much from each other on that project about what's, what's feasible and what's not. And I think this is also a good moment to say that like institutions should be prioritizing this work. And the critique of this isn't of the workers, it's of the institutions mm-hmm. <affirmative> who don't seem to think the things like this needs to be updated, but like the clout of having a digital archive. I'm not saying your archive in particular, I'm thinking of bigger archives, <laugh>, like National Digital Archives. Yes, yes. But I also wanted to say, and it's, it's, it's not quite a neurodiversity issue in the way that we think of it in terms of, you know, neurodiversity encompassing people who process things very differently mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but language and directionality of language does mean that those people process language differently, obviously in their own society.
Speaker 0 00:33:27 People who read Arabic aren't neurodiverse, but when you put them alongside people who read in the other direction, they are distinct. And this is something that bugs me about translation of sites is that all of a sudden everything is in the wrong place because you naturally want everything to flip. And there's something really strange about not moving any of the interface in a digital archive. And I can think of several big corporate examples to think this is an issue. Yes. But also we were, we were both catching things down to the last minute and you know, obviously that list of things we were catching was getting much smaller and we would fill them out to a spreadsheet and we would get in touch with people and sometimes we would assign things to people who weren't necessarily supposed to be assigned that. But we, we really did try to kinda weed through the site and make sure, and obviously there's some things that just weren't possible because, and this is the issue is software, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is being able to pay for software. And, and this is an issue. I I just, it really bugs me that like a digital collection system is very much used for clout and then no one wants to help maintain it sometimes. And I really admire the fact that you are constantly combing through your site. I want to begin to think about wrapping this up <laugh>, but it is funny, when I wrote this question, I was thinking, I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking, well, the
Speaker 1 00:34:55 Question tell me the question
Speaker 0 00:34:56 <laugh>. Yeah. The question is, how has being an archivist changed the way you think and express yourself? But you started this interview with this like, beautiful story about sorting coins with your grandfather and it's, it's funny, I just, I think of you as like fully formed <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:35:13 I was like this, so I had, uh, quite a late diagnosis for my A D H D and also have a literacy processing disorder. So there's only, I only had that diagnosis a couple of years ago. And I think that when that happened, also things about being an archivist or having wanted to kind of have a profession like this, things did sort of click into place. Being neurodiverse means I do have a very strong sense of justice. It's something very common in people who are autistic and also have adhd. It's a common thread between both. And I think that being an archivist has increased my justice sensitivity and helps sort of direct it in a way that's meaningful. I think I've become a bit better at recognizing my privileges. That's a continuous thing that we should always be challenging in ourselves. And, and, but also, yeah, my own biases, I think that ethics is at the core of Archivy and it needs to be at the core of our, you know, everyday practice.
Speaker 0 00:36:20 It's just so reflective in everything you do. And I think you're a really good example of someone who really pushes for it. And I just, I admire you so much,
Speaker 1 00:36:30 <laugh>. I'm blessing. I'm
Speaker 0 00:36:32 <laugh>. I, I hope so. Um,
Speaker 1 00:36:34 Do you mind if I read out, would you mind if I just read out a quote from someone? It was actually a tweet.
Speaker 0 00:36:40 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:36:41 It's something that, it was tweeted in 2021 in June and it stuck with me and I bookmarked it and it stuck with me since, and it's very poignant. Their name is Marus Koth. I think they're, they're a PhD. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:36:53 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:36:55 They said, whenever I hear historians go on and on about their love for the archives and how beautiful and mystical the archive is, I just think about how many of us who work on the histories of the oppression and subjugation of our ancestors could never describe the archive using those words.
Speaker 0 00:37:13 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:14 And I know that that's, um, quite sad, but it's very, I found it very, very poignant and I think it's just kinda something that I've, once I read, it really, really stuck with me. And I, and I try to kind of keep that in mind throughout my work.
Speaker 0 00:37:29 Yeah. Uh, one of the hard parts for both of us is the way a lot of the photographs are taken too. I mean, we could get into the specifics of photography, right? I mean, for example, you guys have a lot of postcards and Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:43 The postcards be worst
Speaker 0 00:37:45 <laugh>, those can be useful. Yeah. But they're So what do you hate about them?
Speaker 1 00:37:50 Oh, most of them are so violent. Really. There are a lot of them that were created by companies, companies that were essentially created by or supported by the French government. So obviously particularly Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco. And, you know, they actively perpetuate orientalist views. I mean, they massively oversexualized women and made them seem available to whether visitors or intentional colonizers. And, and that was also part of it, that they would make the land itself seem enticing. They wanted people to come, they wanted people to set up businesses. So it's like, yes, they, they're seemingly sort of just like little postcards you can pick up at any corner store or news agent or whatever, but they're really, really powerful and really violent.
Speaker 0 00:38:39 Yeah. I think you and I talked about this. I'm, I'm currently writing something about this, this piece about Jaffa cakes
Speaker 1 00:38:46 <laugh>. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:38:47 And like the awfulness of, of colonialism. I mean also, I don't like Jaffa cakes. I'm sorry. I know that they're a national treasure. I think they're disgusting.
Speaker 1 00:38:56 Um, they're kinda disgusting. They're kinda like, it's like they've been left out for a long time.
Speaker 0 00:39:01 Yes. <laugh> Yes, for stale. This is the thing. Is that fresh? That sounds fine, but they're also just stale.
Speaker 1 00:39:06 Yeah, no, they're
Speaker 0 00:39:07 Stale. So it's this weird marketing of a cake and obviously there's like a lot of history there. But anyway, you go into the archives and look for photos of orange groves in Yasa mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially during the 20th century. And the mandate period, a lot of the photos were taken by the American colony. Yes. Which was attempting to start a utopic society. And they were using these images to like fund their endeavors in Jerusalem, their Christians, and they fizzled out. Uh, but still, it's annoying because these images got everywhere and these images were used to sell this idea of Palestine being empty, but also full of primitive people at the same time. And whenever I say this to people, people are like, that's contradictory. People would notice. And I'm like, no, no. People have this sense that they're just like some primitives in caves and that you can use them to pack oranges. Like that's, that's the image that's been sent is that these people aren't worthy. And it, it really bothers me. And I think recently I put in a request with you to look at a lot of jewelry stuff. I mentioned this earlier and it's so hard to look at the people's faces in these things. Hmm. Because they look so posed. Some of them are colorized. And we, me and you have, I think, banged on a bit on Twitter about colorization. Well, you have banged on I have liked things and said, I love you
Speaker 1 00:40:21 <laugh>. I never bang on about anything <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:40:24 <laugh>. Stop saying bang on. I think, I think it's like a stereotype that women waffle and we don't, yes. We don't really, we're
Speaker 1 00:40:31 Waffling now. But
Speaker 0 00:40:33 I think one thing I kind of wanna highlight, because I think most of the time the archive is really sad, but there's this image that I found in your archive I found I did not discover it. It's another issue. You do not discover things in archives. The librarian or archivist found it and put it there for you or received it from a connector.
Speaker 1 00:40:52 And when you finished blur the dust off this object, what was it?
Speaker 0 00:40:56 Well, it was digital, so there was, I mean there's probably dust on my computer, but anyway, <laugh>, it was this little postcard, but it was produced for Egyptian audiences and it was of in the twenties. So, you know, she was still kind of big, but not huge. Like she wasn't Beyonce level, which is where she ascended to Yes. Just give people a comparative, they're, they're very similar in their business acumen. And she's quite young and she's not really posed like sexually, like some of the people are in these photos. She's not posed in a way that's reminiscent of, uh, of Europeans. And she's just sort of standing there like with her arms dead besides her. And she looks lovely, but I love that she's not conforming to an aesthetic, but also that on the back of the card, there are lyrics to a song. So this was clearly used for Egyptians to sell. I mean, like, this is a commonly known thing that like these cards are passed along to kind of market songs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, I love that. I love finding these little things that you're just like, oh, here's a little wink from the past that, you know, has something to do with colonialism, but it's also just sweet. And I, I really like that image. I just like this. She just clearly does not give too.
Speaker 1 00:42:05 Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that there is, there is a lot of joy in, a lot of tenderness in many of the photographs and in, you know, in many collections in general. It, you know, I just think that like, it is always, almost always as, as you just noted for this one, it's interwoven with all the other not nice things. But there is lots of beauty and joy and a lot of that does come in, as you say, like think about the use of these objects
Speaker 0 00:42:32 Also. And I think this goes back to the, the quote by Marios, I think implied in there is it's that for people like us whose heritage this is, we don't really get to put it down at the end of the day, we're doing this because we, we wanna give back to our communities. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's not a nine to five. It's always, I'm, I don't know, I'm making an assumption about you. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:42:52 No, it's absolutely not. I will wake up or I will go to sleep and think, oh, I wanna have a look at that subject tomorrow. Or I think that we could be doing better with that collection, or whatever the thing is. And I, I think that honestly that's something we owe the objects and we owe the communities represented by those objects.
Speaker 0 00:43:10 Well, I'm gonna end this with, uh, I normally say, oh, best of luck. Congratulations on the project <laugh>. But, um, I love you and appreciate you and respect you, uh, and admire you so much. I don't like saying I'm proud of you. Cause I feel like that makes me
Speaker 1 00:43:26 Like I'm blushing again. I really, really, I mean I love having these conversations with you in general. I also hope that many other people bring you in on their, their archival projects and their websites and discussions about accessibility. Because you taught me a great deal and you continue to,
Speaker 0 00:43:44 You taught me a great deal. This is this, this, this podcast will highlight you <laugh>. That's, and I think, I think just to plug other people and maybe cuz we like doing that too. It's, it's, I think we belong to a really cool community of people who think similarly. And I think you mentioned some of them, the web developers we worked with on the projects were amazing. I think we have lots of thought partners in our little tiny little community and I hope that we can continue to make good trouble.
Speaker 1 00:44:13 Yes. I hope so. I'm going to share with you, I think I, you may have it already, my list of kinda, I think I've called it archives lips, radicalize, radical, anti-racist, um, you know, kind of revolutionary work in, in archives or with archival collections that I think are worth following on Twitter. For those that are on
Speaker 0 00:44:43 Twitter, it's my favorite Twitter list whenever I don't wanna listen to people's bs. I just swipe over there and it's just, it's not happy. It's angsty. And then there are lots of cats and food
Speaker 1 00:44:56 Yeah. In intermittent comforts.
Speaker 0 00:44:59 So well curated. But anyway, I guess I'll say goodbye to you for now.
Speaker 1 00:45:03 Thank you so much for
Speaker 0 00:45:04 Having me. Thank you for, thank you for listening. And again, a big thank you to Jasmine who you can follow
[email protected]. You can follow the Madan at the madan on Twitter. Our music is by Blue dot Sessions and a huge thank you to the loose foundation which supports this work. Be sure to subscribe or follow the mad down on social media for upcoming episodes and more in the Madan selection of podcasts.
